Discussion with Carl Smallwood, Director of the Divided Community Project at Moritz Law School and the first African American President of the Columbus Bar Association

Episode Notes

Transcript

Amanda Arriaga:

Welcome to a special bonus episode of Leading theBar at the NCBP midyear meeting in February, 2024. I had the great fortune to interview leaders from across the country for the Austin Bar Association. Today we are airing the discussion I had with Carl Smallwood, former NCBP President, first African-American president of the Columbus Bar Association and Director of the Divided Community Project at Moritz Law School. Though it was recorded more than a year and a half ago, the topics are still relevant. Patrick, what do you think our listeners will get out of this episode?

Patrick Palace:

Yeah, thank you, Amanda. I love this episode. Look, I’ve been a leader most of my bar life, what is that? 30 years, and I learned something from Carl every single time he talks. This program that you so beautifully put together with Carl is so full of wisdom. It’s so full of leadership knowledge. Nobody can walk away from this without a bucket of information about how to be an amazing leader.

Amanda Arriaga:

Well, and I think what you get to know about Carl is he is smart, he is thoughtful and committed, but he’s also a lovely person and he giggles and he wears bow ties, and he just loves sharing his knowledge. He loves talking to people. I just fell in love with him and was very charmed by everything he had to say.

Patrick Palace:

I agree. And you said your introduction. We did this a year ago, but it’s still relevant. I think it’s more relevant than it was then. His conversation about polar divides in this country and about tools for unity and uniting the legal profession and our communities and resolving problems. It’s like a toolkit for how to make this country a better place and find unity again across the nation. And he really holds a lot of those tools and this podcast unlocks those

Amanda Arriaga:

And he means that reach out to him if you need help, if you have feedback, reach out to us. If you have feedback, you want us to pass along to him. And we hope you love this episode. Welcome to the next episode of the Austin Bar Association’s Council of first I’m your host, Amanda Ariaga, first Latina bar president. In today’s episode, we’re doing something a little bit different. We’ve partnered with the National Conference for Bar Presidents to do a series of interviews with bar leaders from around the country here in Louisville, Kentucky. So I’m happy to introduce you to all of these leaders that you might not know because they’re not from Austin. Carl Smallwood is the director of the Divided Community Project at Moritz Law School. The DCP is committed to the belief that dispute resolution practitioners, policymakers, and scholars, can make a tangible constructive contribution to helping leaders in seared by tensions, unrest, and civil discord to strengthen and expand their capacity and resiliency.

He was the first black partner at Vs. Seder Seymour and PS LLP, where he worked for over 38 years. Carl also served as the founding president of the Law and Leadership Institute, LLCA diversity pipeline program for underserved high school students created by the Ohio Supreme Court, the Ohio State Bar Association, the nine Ohio Law Schools, and the Ohio Center of Law Related Education. Carl was also named the inaugural winner of the Ohio State Bar Foundation Excellence in Diversity and Inclusion Award, and a champion of diversity by the Ohio Super Lawyers Magazine. Carl is the graduate of Ohio State University and the Ohio State University. Mor, its College of Law. I’m honored to have with us today Carl Smallwood. Well, Carl, thank you for being here and I want to start at the beginning. Why did you want to be a lawyer?

Carl Smallwood:

I wanted to be useful. I wanted to make a difference. I participated in some things in high school and college debate and developed some skills that I thought would be useful and mostly I wanted to make a difference in terms of justice for people. Martin Luther King Jr talks about the arc of the moral universe as long, but it bends towards justice. I wanted to have a hand in bending the Ark of the Moral Universe towards justice.

Amanda Arriaga:

My goodness. I think that’s going to be our hashtag bending the Ark of the Moral Universe towards justice.

Carl Smallwood:

Okay. It’s a lofty aspiration,

Amanda Arriaga:

But it’s a good one. The premise of this podcast is Counselor First where we celebrate firsts in legal positions. And you are the first African-American president of the Columbus Bar Association, but that comes with some burdens because if you’re not a great first, maybe there won’t be a next. So tell me about your experience as the first.

Carl Smallwood:

Yes, I was the first American president of Columbus Bar Association in 2000, elected in 2000. And I think you’re right in saying it comes with a few extra burdens, and I’ll explain what I mean by that. There had been black members of the Board of Governors of the Columbus Bar Association for years before I sought off, and some of the more people I looked up to, and I wonder, well, why did none of them run to be president of theBar and who am I if they didn’t do it? Who am I to be president of theBar? And fortunately, one of those folks came to me and said, you should run it’s time. And I did and was elected, and one of the African-American judges in Columbus, Ohio said, it doesn’t matter who’s first, just so they’re not the last. And that I thought was a really important point. And so as was trying to get ready to be president of theBar and then discharging the duties of the office, I absolutely agree with you. I think you want to make sure it’s done right, because I was told, oh, you don’t have to do a hundred percent for everything you get ready for. And I thought, well, the first time I do this at 80% and it fails, isn’t somebody going to say, well, that’s what we thought. He wasn’t ready. So I think for the most part, I try to do things at about 110%. People appreciate enthusiasm. That’s a good thing.

And for the most part, try to do it right so that I wouldn’t be the last, and I wasn’t mean. There’ve been a number of lawyers of color, a number of black lawyers who’ve served as president of the Columbus Bar Association since 2000. And I’m really proud of what they have done in that office and what other presidents at the Columbus Bar have done at that office.

Amanda Arriaga:

Well, tell us about your day job at the Divided Community Project.

Carl Smallwood:

The Divided Community Project was begun in 2015. It is housed at the Moritz College of Law at the Ohio State University. The College of Law is a US News and World Ranked number two program in dispute resolution in the country. And two of the founders of the Divided Community Project are emeritus members of that faculty, Nancy Rogers and Josh Stohlberg. And they gathered together dispute resolution practitioners, advocacy group leaders, law enforcement, municipal leaders, and others in 2015 to take a look at what was happening in communities around the country, particularly after police involved shootings used as a deadly force and things like that. And at the first conference was looking at actually what happened in Sanford, Florida after Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in February, 2012. Now, that wasn’t a police killing, but it was a young African-American 17-year-old, and they looked at what happened in Sanford after that event, national, international Attention mass protests, 30, 40,000 people coming upon that community.

It did not result in the kind of destruction arrests or after effects that occurred in Ferguson after Michael Brow was killed or in Baltimore after Freddie Gray was killed. And so the question was why? And they looked at that example and at the conclusion of the conference, they raised the question, is there a role for people who do dispute resolution, who do conciliation in communities to assist communities in the aftermath of these kind of events and with tension that’s caused by other reasons? The answer was yes. The Divided Community Project was born and we exist to help communities that are divided racially, religiously. Now, political polarization is big, gender identity and other reasons that people are divided. And to try to help those communities design dispute resolution processes that will help them bridge those differences. We have what we call the Bridge Initiative, which helps communities in real time.

It is a direct consultation and intervention service. Two of the former members of the US Department of Justice Community Relations Service work with us to help communities around the country, the community relations services called Americas Peacemakers. They’re the ones who sort of parachute into communities after events occur to help communities. And our bridge program is modeled exactly on that. We provide those services upon requests and at no charge to the community. It’s all funded by foundation. In addition to that, we teach academies, and what we try to do is to translate some of the lessons of communities that are successful in addressing tension into guidance that community leaders can use written guidance, but not written for other lawyers, really written for community leaders and faith leaders and law enforcement leaders and others

Amanda Arriaga:

Since dispute resolution needs two parties that want to resolve a dispute. Have you ever had a situation where you want to help you see the need, you see the service that you can provide, but the parties aren’t ready

Carl Smallwood:

Almost exclusively? I said we help upon request. It usually is the request of one party or some individual or a group of individuals in a community that reach out quite often. Some other parts of the community are not ready to have that conversation. I mean, consider most recently the conflict in the Middle East and Gaza in Israel. And at the moment there are communities that aren’t ready to talk about any kind of a resolution there. And at this point, as we’ve begun to sort of lean into that space to help campuses and students on campuses, it really is about providing support to each other at this point. It really is sort of trying to make it safe for students to talk to each other across those differences. Because you’ve got Muslim students and Palestinian students and Jewish students and students who don’t belong to any of those groups, identities who are afraid, who are in pain.

And as part of a community, a law school community, a college community, you need to be able to support each other, or at least we want to be in a position where you can reach out and say, is there something we can do to support you? So it’s often the case that you don’t have two parties who come to you as they do in civil litigation sometimes because the judge said, Hey, go talk to an arbitrator or a mediator. This is much more the circumstance where you gain entry into a community because you’ve been invited there by a stakeholder in the community. And then you begin to reach out and determine and assess whether it’s possible to engage people in conversation. Sometimes it begins and it’s not direct conversation, it’s indirect. It’s through a intermediary, and you’re able hopefully to make some progress to help with the conflict they have.

Amanda Arriaga:

So with all that you’ve seen in your career and now at the law school with the DCP, do you think the legal community is on the right track towards being more diverse, equitable inclusive?

Carl Smallwood:

I graduated from law school in 1980, so I was in law school back during one of the early Supreme Court decisions related to affirmative action in higher education. And I guess my career has now been long enough that I’ve reached the most recent with the students for fair admission. I think the profession understands the importance that the legal community reflect the broader society that they serve. And so I think we are on the right track. And the question really is the pace at which we are going and whether some of the progress that has been obtained, which at this point means that approximately 15%, 14% of the profession is lawyers of color, whether the progress towards having a greater percentage of lawyers of color in the profession will continue. And I know that over the years, the reason this is so important was brought home by a former Chief Justice of the Ohio Supreme Court to us who said the authority of legal community is grounded in the trust of citizens that we will fairly and efficiently address their needs, help settle their disputes and uphold the rule of law.

And that is made possible only because of the trust and respect that the citizens have for the profession. In that regard, the profession must reflect the society. And if it does not, then it will not have the legitimacy among the broader population that it requires. And an example simply would be if you’re in a Courtroom and you’re a cat and everybody else in that Courtroom is a dog, the lawyers are dogs, the bailiff’s a dog, the judge is a dog, the juries are a dog, you’re not going to believe you’re getting a fair trial. And I think that it’s as a result important that when people come to our courthouses, when they come to the places where we dispense justice, not justice because you think it’s justice, but justice because in fact, an impartial party has heard and considered the evidence and has applied both moral and ethical judgment with respect to the evidence and then renders a verdict or a judgment, a conclusion they do so reflecting in fact who’s out there. And if nobody looks like the people who are coming before the courts, I don’t think that’s possible. It doesn’t generate trust in the system.

Amanda Arriaga:

Well, in speaking of rule of law, that is a topic that you are an expert in. I will say that you don’t have to say that I see you’re making a face. I’ll say you’re a scholar in, but sometimes when we say phrases, rule of law, democracy, free and fair elections, those innocuous words are scary to people and controversial people. Why do you think that is?

Carl Smallwood:

Well, it’s lack of understanding. I mean, we haven’t really spoken about those terms even within the legal profession. We sometimes bandy about those terms, but we don’t define them. And you say, I’m a scholar and an expert, and I think that overstates probably what I am because I know as I’ve looked at the question of what actually makes up the rule of law, it is more complex than simply saying the rule of law. And we all understand that. But having systems that have impartial parties that do the dispensed justice without favor based on income or origin or influence is critically important. And this is the part that’s hard because even when you talk to somebody who’s sort of in this area, there are definitions for some of these terms and the World Justice Project, for example, ranks by whether they have effective democracies and how the rule of law is working in those countries.

And they have a series of six or eight criteria that describe what would be more democratic, what would be more just, and you can measure those and use those metrics to determine how a country is doing well as they’ve done. So over the course of the last number of years, what we think of as probably the shining city on the hill, the United States democracy and system of justice seems to be slipping in terms of how those metrics show up in our country. And that’s unfortunate, and it’s largely a result of are not emphasizing education with respect to civics, with respect to the importance of democracy and the rule of law. And so we may have an opportunity to try to correct that in the future. We spend a lot of time and money on STEM education,

Which

Is really important, but it’s also important to talk about civility and civics and how our system works to try to be fair to everybody who becomes part of the system, how people’s right to vote is not abridged and how it is then effectuated in terms of electing people as a result of their exercise of vote.

Amanda Arriaga:

Well, looking from the outside, there seems to be an interesting shift because the American Bar Association has always been interested in committed to the rule of law, but it seems like it had been external to other countries. And now because of the right to vote, we’re coming back to us in a sense.

Carl Smallwood:

Yeah, and I don’t think it’s just the right to vote. It is also because there are a number of factors that over the course of the last decade or more have begun to undermine trust and confidence in democracy in this country and in the application of the rule of law in this country. And political polarization has driven us a part in some respects. Elected officials unfortunately have undermined confidence in our institutions, in the impartiality of our judges, in the ability of our justice system to deliver accountability as a result. You’ve got a circumstance now where the populace doesn’t have the same conva and trust in our systems as they once did. Social media is a factor. Social media not simply by people in this country who are repeating or spreading things they find amusing but are untrue, but foreign actors as well who have an interest in seeing us weakened and having us with internal conflict. And as a result, I think it really is up to the lawyers. The reason you see American Bar Association involved in this, and you see the Columbus Bar Association and the Austin Bar Association and others involved in this, is that we have the responsibility as lawyers first and foremost to defend the Constitution and the rule of law in this country. We have an opportunity to do so, and it’s our challenge to help restore public trust. And so that’s why you see us working so hard at it.

Amanda Arriaga:

And I know that you winced when I said it earlier, but this is what makes you sound like a bit of a scholar and an expert on this topic.

Carl Smallwood:

But I think we all are, and I guess one of the areas I mentioned to you, the Divided Community Project does a lot of work relating to division on race, religion, and other things. As we turned to political polarization, we looked at what role lawyers and citizens and others could play in helping democracy. And our process at the Divided Community Project is to gather together broad groups, in this case a bipartisan group or a cross partisan group, depending upon how you want to describe it, of elected officials, historians, political scientists, faith leaders, advocacy group leaders, and elected sort of at every level state, local.

They raised the alarm that in fact, democracy was in peril, and they identified ways that we might speak out to help the country currently. So we published, I mentioned we published guides, we published a guide called Speaking Out to Strengthen the Guardrails of Democracy. Maybe you can throw a link in the show notes, it would be great. But it had examples of ways to speak out and suggested, for example, that finding ways to speak in a bipartisan way, example of candidates from both parties saying, we have enough faith in the election system here that when this race is done, whoever wins is the winner. And you as a voter can have confidence in that. And I mean, again, that’s a way of speaking to the concerns, the lack of trust that citizens have and making them feel like the system actually does work. And then of course, there’s another part about once you are governing, governing, so that the public feels, it isn’t just the voters that voted for me, but I have a responsibility to the community is important as well. But I think the first thing we did was to talk about how to speak out to help democracy. And then I guess more recently, the American Bar Association created a task force on American democracy and an advisory commission to the task force. And I chair the advisory commission to the task force.

Amanda Arriaga:

You continue to prove my point, sir. Well,

Carl Smallwood:

But I guess I would want your listeners to know that the task force is sort of this well-known group of officials and others, again, bipartisan who find common ground in urging Americans to support democracy. The Advisory Commission is made up of state, local National Bar Association leaders of the ABAs committees, divisions, section leaders. It’s basically the legal community writ large. And 30 of us who basically are geographically spread across the country are creating opportunities to connect with state, local national bars. Because our goal is to inspire and mobilize America’s duty bound legal profession to actively support and defend democracy, the constitution and the rule of law. And again, there’s the show notes. You can drop a link to that. I mean, there are resources there, but for any bar leader in the country who has a willingness to live up to the oath that they took when they entered this profession, we have got ways that we think they can speak to the legal community first and then to the public because ultimately it’s the public’s confidence that matters the most. I think we as lawyers at times, are used to having opposing ideas and we’re comfortable with that.

And at times it’s important to call out opposing ideas that really aren’t helpful or reliable or factual. And when the public sometimes sees two lawyers arguing, they think, well, they both, I think they read too much into that. And if they could talk to the lawyer separately when they’re not sort of have a microphone in their face, they might both say, here’s what we can agree upon and you should take confidence that this system permits us to disagree this way. That’s a good thing. But we have to agree on other things. And one of the things we can agree upon is that certain parts of the system work exactly like they’re supposed to and they will deliver what you would expect the system to deliver. So in voting, for example, or in other aspects

Amanda Arriaga:

When speaking of lawyers collaborating together, you’re a past president of NCBP.

Carl Smallwood:

Yeah.

Amanda Arriaga:

What does NCBP mean to you?

Carl Smallwood:

Well, I mean as the National conference of our presidents, I guess, and I don’t know if all of your listeners know exactly what that is, but it is a group of state, local and national bar leaders. I first became a member when I was in the ladders to become president of the Columbus Bar Association some 20 some years ago. But I’ve remained involved in the national conference of bar president since then because it was a source of strength and inspiration for me when I was a bar leader wannabe that there were bar leaders who’d gone before who said, here are the issues that you need to be aware of. We’re not going to tell you what to do. You figure it out. But there are resources, there are calm heads, there are ears that will listen. We’re going to connect you with a group of lawyers around the country who are facing the exact same issues in their communities. We want you to get to know them. We want you to be resources for them. And what I’ve developed is lifelong friends over 20 some years of being part of the National Conference of our Presidents. But so what it means to me is it is a nationwide network of committed leaders. They support each other. They train the next generation of lawyers. They are some of the best and brightest lawyers in the country, and many of them have become lifelong friends.

Amanda Arriaga:

I was chatting with someone earlier and described that my first executive council meeting in NCBP felt like I walked into an AP class. It was the leaders of leaders, the leader IST leaders that you know, all in one room working together for a common goal. And so I had not seen that before. And so congratulations to you for being part of that and to NCBP in general for existing and continuing to model the way. I think that’s how everybody feels. That ends up as part of this.

Carl Smallwood:

I think it is so important. You mentioned that I was the first African-American president of the Columbus Bar Association, and I know the difference between being second or third. And I know that most of the things that I’ve done in this profession, including being president of the Columbus Bar, there are others who went before me who blazed the trails, who used to say built fires that I was warmed by. And I think it’s important to continue to do that. Those of us who’ve had our turn as president of theBar need to continue to do that for the next generation coming up and then give them their turn.

I mean, believe me, I’m happy to get out of the way and let somebody else have a turn. But most of us stay involved and then try to make sure we’re reaching back to sort of give folks a hand up. And because all of the work we do is designed to help the communities where we live, and whether you are a state president or a local president or a national president, the rubber hits the road in communities all over this country, some of which are really struggling right now with a lot of division and bar presidents are in a position to be important, helpful, constructive members of those communities. That’s what I’d love to see. And if there’s anything I can do to support that, I’m available. And you’ll put my email in this show notes as well.

Amanda Arriaga:

People are going to be calling you.

Carl Smallwood:

I hope so. Because it means people are thinking about how to solve problems. That’s why we all went to law school. That’s what we do on a daily basis. And as I said at the beginning, in some respect, the hope is we’re doing something useful. If the arc of the moral you can reverses along, and it certainly is the only reason that it bends towards justice, is because people are applying their hands and their shoulders and their labor to it. And that’s what I’d like to be a part of. What it’s all said and done.

Amanda Arriaga:

What advice would you give to lawyers who want to follow in your footsteps?

Carl Smallwood:

Lean in. Lean in. There are opportunities available for you. And when you get an invitation to join something, to go to a Bar association meeting, to lead a committee to work on an event, lean into it the same way you lean into learning your craft. As a lawyer, I was a trial lawyer. The same diligence that you apply to getting an examination of a witness, right? Or crafting an opening statement or picking a jury or anything else. Apply the same diligence to the work you do in the profession. This profession matters. It matters not only to the lawyers who benefit from the profession, it matters to the public that we serve. So lean into it. And again, my guidance is don’t bring 50%. Bring it all. Bring it all, and everything you do isn’t going to work. That’s okay. You’ll learn from it and we’ll do better the next time. And take advantage of the people who are around you who are willing to be helpful. You need mentors, you need champions, you need friends. And this profession has got all of those. So my guidance is get involved.

Amanda Arriaga:

Well, I think we’ve ended with a more concise hashtag than at the beginning. Your hashtag now will be This profession matters.

Carl Smallwood:

Fair enough.

Amanda Arriaga:

So thank you for being with us today. I think this has been an exciting discussion that the audience is going to love.

Carl Smallwood:

Amanda, my ears is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.