Stuff You NEED to Know to Rank in Local Search with Darren Shaw

Episode Notes

Transcript

Conrad Saam:

Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. I am Conrad Saam and I have just bought way too much back country ski gear

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And I am Gyi Tsakalakis from AttorneySync and wow, it must be the unnecessary gear season because I’ve been gearing up for an upcoming hunting trip.

Conrad Saam:

I did not know you shot things for fun.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Not for food. For food. This would be my first time.

Conrad Saam:

Oh, the grocery stores have all closed due to the tariffs and you are now

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Foraging? Not yet. Not yet.

Conrad Saam:

Alright, we need to move on. Gee, outside of hunting and gathering and skiing, what do we talk about here?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

We talk about legal marketing on launch, our legal marketing, and today, not that we need more content, but we are in an emergency legal marketing session for Breaking News. Conrad, you tell me what we’re talking about today.

Conrad Saam:

So Darren Shaw’s local ranking factor survey just came out and gee, and I thought it was so important for us to talk about with you guys that we are recording this entirely with without the handholding of both Allie and Adam. So if this goes poorly, that’s on us,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It will go poorly. The question is how poorly and will we be able to salvage any recording from this time that we’re spending?

Conrad Saam:

We’ll be good enough because they’re so good. They may make us sound good no matter what. Alright, we are going to first start with a short news segment and then go deep on Darren Shaw’s local ranking factors. Hit it.

Announcer:

Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing, teaching you how to promote market and make fat stacks for your legal practice here on Legal Talk Network.

Conrad Saam:

Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Let’s hit the news. All right, gee, we have spoken about Top Dog recently. Fascinating model, really great example of positioning. They have just purchased Keller Swan and I believe that includes 16 or 17 attorneys, is that correct?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, yeah, something like that. 12 I think.

Conrad Saam:

Rounding up.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, you can go check this out. This is a bunch of news Law 360, covered a bunch of places, covered it. This is Top Dog’s entrance into the Florida market and what have we been talking about? Consolidation national players. Now the funny thing is not funny, it just is what it is. Florida already competitive.

Conrad Saam:

Why would you choose Florida Top dog? I mean they’re analytical data driven because they’re like, it’s a market. Go pick on someone your own size. So the Florida market confuses me because I would’ve assumed one of two things. Either you win where it’s less competitive or they’re basically betting the house and saying, if we can make this work in Florida, we can make this work anywhere.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I think Florida is too big of a market to ignore, but start there. Start there. What are you talking about there? They’re all over. There’s not in Seattle, bro.

Conrad Saam:

From an acquisition perspective, why start there? So by the way, people this brought top dog, I don’t even know what the right word for 13 x sing your size. Is this brought top dog from one lawyer to 12 plus one lawyers, right?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah. I think it’ll be interesting to see. Remember this is an acquisition. Let’s see how many lawyers are there in 24 months?

Conrad Saam:

Wow. Go dust off your LinkedIn profile. Florida lawyer.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah. Again, just look. I think frankly we’re seeing, we’re going to see that trend across the board. The people that are ahead of the curve on service delivery through ai, they’re already decoupling this concept of headcount to cases handled. Each lawyer can handle way more cases,

Conrad Saam:

Which is the primary thesis of Cleo’s legal trends report. We are not pandering because they’re not a sponsor, but we would love them to come back and we will overtly pander.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, I sent totally unrelated news, but we’ll give a shout to our friends at Lawyers and Affinity. They had a great conversation with Jack Newton. Yeah, I think it was a CLE Ocon interview. Go check that out. I pinged Jack because I’m so curious about his view on this Vals AI V-L-A-I-R benchmarking report on ai. Anyway, off topic, but go check out that conversation. I think that hopefully we may be able to talk to them about that at some point.

Conrad Saam:

For those of you who are wondering where the fuck is Adam? To bring us back on topic, I’m going to step into that void

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Emergency meeting.

Conrad Saam:

The other news item that we had, a IO impacting Google, click to rates a September, 2025 update. This is in search engine line, I believe. Gee,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It’s a search engine line covered. It’s a SEER interactive report, a IO impact on Google CTR, December 25, update seer.

Conrad Saam:

See, great agency by the way.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yep. Published by Tracy McDonald on the 4th of November. Today is the seventh.

Conrad Saam:

Why do you have September in the notes to make me look like I’m late on

Gyi Tsakalakis:

This? No, that’s, that says September. It’s an update. So they’ve been, it’s an

Conrad Saam:

Update to the September report. Thank

Gyi Tsakalakis:

You. Yeah, it’s an update. Well, this report I think dates all the way back to January. They’ve been tracking trends, so they’re giving an update anyway, yada, yada, yada. Click through rates for everything are way down. Well, not everything. This is kind of my point. You should go read the study, but they’re talking ads, they’re talking aios, click-through rates across the board are down. Here’s the interesting thing, and they call this out too, and I’ll be curious, get your thoughts on this. Conrad in local, in bottom of the funnel, local, especially in Legal one, forget about click-through rates, in my opinion, we’ve already known click-through rates for Google business profiles because you’ve got mobile click to calls and click to calls, not necessarily representative like of big trends and two, the LSAs, they are commanding so much of the attention and I was even looking at, I just pulled up an account just to kind of give, have at least one example to talk about on this year over year, this account that I was looking at, the impression share was up from 6% to 18% and that’s a function on

Conrad Saam:

Ssas.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And so that’s contrary to what a lot of the industry reports say because again, it hits different in local.

Conrad Saam:

Let me just summarize. You’re saying that these studies are nationwide and not specifically local small business?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, yeah, not just nationwide, but they’re not localized intent queries. You

Conrad Saam:

Know what I mean? Yeah. How do I mix blue and green and what color do I get

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Right now? The interesting question because again, they’re seeing it in ads and they’re seeing it in transactional queries. They’re seeing it in commercial queries. But is this the future for local two or is local never going to really get to this point because of things like the richness of the, I mean we talk about this with the near media guys too. The LSAs make Google a lot of money. Think about Google, right? One, they’re just reported. Q3 clicks are up Best quarter ever. That’s their new story. Everybody else is like, this doesn’t make sense. Are you manufacturing clicks? Because it seems like everything that we see show clicks are down. If it’s true that clicks are actually down in ads, you should see it impacting top line revenue. Right?

Conrad Saam:

Well, I mean I think what you’re saying behind the scenes, and by the way, we need to get back to the point of what we’re talking about, Adam, we’re having

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Too much fun. We’re having too

Conrad Saam:

Much fun. Our listeners miss you. What you’re saying is Google is figuring out how to make more money on fewer clicks and they’re doing that through LSAs. That’s your thesis here.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That’s my thesis. I got some more breaking news. Shit. Darren’s going to join us.

Conrad Saam:

He is.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yep.

Conrad Saam:

Breaking news in real time. You’re going to get Darren Shaw. Do we have to put a tariff on this podcast?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

We’ll have to ask him.

Conrad Saam:

Darren’s coming to us from the Great North, the aspiring 51st State.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Oh boy.

Conrad Saam:

Sorry I can’t help myself.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

We’re publishing this live. This is a live stream. And with that, let’s take a break.

Conrad Saam:

Oh, and

Gyi Tsakalakis:

There he’s, oh my

Conrad Saam:

Gosh, here we go. I mean,

Darren Shaw:

Hey guys, thanks for the invite.

Conrad Saam:

We’re a little kooky. I like the cat sweater though.

Darren Shaw:

Oh yeah. I love sweaters with animals on it. It’s my thing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Let us first say thank you for joining us with a zero lead time invitation. That was totally unreasonable for us to even ask you.

Conrad Saam:

Yeah, happy to. He’s like, that’s what I expect from you guys.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

You also rock for the local search ranking factors report, which is what we are talking about here. Darren, welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.

Darren Shaw:

Thanks for having me. Thanks for the last minute invite. I just finished some lunch and I looked at my calendar, I was like, I should get to some emails, but you know what, I’ll just have a nice chat with Conrad and gee, it’ll be great. This will be more

Conrad Saam:

Fun. Hey Darren, just for our listeners and you can eat

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Lunch also.

Darren Shaw:

Oh, you’re already done. Okay.

Conrad Saam:

This is Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. I mean it’s perfect, right?

Darren Shaw:

I know it is still technically my lunch hour, so I thought I could use some of that time to join you guys. Well, we

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Are super grateful for it.

Conrad Saam:

So Darren, can you give a quick overview? I believe you were on the show a little while ago, maybe two or three years ago. Can you just give a quick intro who you are and a little bit about the local search ranking factors report survey?

Darren Shaw:

Sure. Yep. So I’m Darren Shaw. I’m the founder of Whitepar Company that provides local SEO software and services. Been doing this for, well, white Spark started in 2005, so we are 20 years old and I’ve been doing SEO and web development since 1996 because I’m surprisingly old now. But

Gyi Tsakalakis:

You’re a local SEO plank holder.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah, exactly. I’ve been holding this plank for over 20 years, so that’s about me. I produced the local search ranking Factors report. I don’t take credit for the brilliance of the report. It was originally developed by David Mim, ultimate OG of local SEO. Absolutely incredible him, Mike Blumenthal and many of the OGs of local SEO started this report in 2008. In 2017. David said, this is a lot of work, I don’t want to do it anymore. Anyone else want to do it? And I said, I’ll do it. And so I’ve been doing it since 2017 and it has been a real honor to be able to produce this survey. What the survey is, it’s a survey of 47 of the most recognized, noteworthy, smartest, brilliant local SEOs in the industry. And look, three of ’em are right here on this podcast. I was going to

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Say, I say the brightest and Gian Conrad and Conrad,

Conrad Saam:

Listen,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

How did we get in on this? How did we get

Conrad Saam:

On it? We need to note that you also include Susan Oppe on this. She is legal specific and good friend of both of ours. Person I just want to make sure that we don’t overlook Susan.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, not just Susan. I mean it is a roster of the top. No, it’s great roster. I’m just talking about legal, legal

Conrad Saam:

Specific.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

This is the all-star team of local SEO.

Conrad Saam:

Do you like how Gyi just introduced himself as the all-star?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

No, like I said, I’m talking about the other people. I don’t know how I got involved on this.

Darren Shaw:

You guys definitely all stars. You speak at conferences, you publish, you do a podcast. Are a lot of people ask me, well I want to be a contributor to the survey. And I’m like, alright, show me. That’s the thing. And

Conrad Saam:

Is that when you strike them out, when they ask, you’re like,

Darren Shaw:

It’s a little bit of a yellow flag, but it’s not necessarily a yellow flag. If you came and you weren’t on my radar before and you were like, Hey Darren, I’d be interested in contributing. I’m going to take a look at your profile. I want to see what do you do, how long you’ve been doing it, what justifies me to include you. And I include a lot of people every year I always add new people. And so this year I added some really interesting people, this guy TJ Robertson who was not on my radar before, but I started doing some tiktoks and I’m like, look at this guy. He’s on TikTok and that’s his channel. And so he’s just given local SEO advice on TikTok and everything that the guy says is smart. And I’m like, yes, you are a new voice that I hadn’t heard before and I want to have you include in the survey.

So anyways, 47 of who I have luckily identified as superstars in local SEO people that really know what they’re talking about. They completed grueling survey. It takes two hours. You got to score all the facts, you’ve got to answer all these open-ended questions. It is a real grind to get through it. And I didn’t realize how much of a grind it was. I sent the survey out, Hey everybody, I got the new survey ready, please do it. And they did it and I was like, okay, great. And then I’m like, I started compiling the data and I was like, well, I forgot to do the survey. So I had to do it and after I did it, I was like, oh dear, what have I done? I’m so sorry to give you guys a two and a half, three hour job to go and complete the survey.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I’m glad that’s part of the value that it provides and I’m glad that you have to go through it yourself. So keep you honest about it.

Conrad Saam:

Hey gee, when you do this, I’m curious. I do this with my top two SEO guys and we fight about it and it’s brutal.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, I include people’s feedback when I do it as well internally because again, I think it’s important to, as an agency owner, we’re brought in on certain things, but the day-to-day in the trenches, what do you see stuff. I think it’s good to get somebody that’s on the front lines with that stuff.

Conrad Saam:

Let’s get into it. Adam’s telling us to get to the point.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Let’s talk about the

Darren Shaw:

Survey. Seriously, you asked of questions

Conrad Saam:

Darren, so big picture, what were the big takeaways from this year? We have a lot of people who are fairly reasonably versed on stuff.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah.

Conrad Saam:

What was the thing that you were like, I did not see that coming or that’s a massive change from last year?

Darren Shaw:

Well, I did see all the changes coming all local all the time. I’m just obsessed with it and I’m always doing stuff and reading anyone’s research. So for me personally, no surprises, but if you don’t follow locals closely as I do, there were some factors that really took off this year that were not as prominent last year and these are things typically related to research that Joy Hawkins has done where she lifts the veil and she’s like, Hey, guess what? Everybody knew ranking factors. So that would be things like your business hours. People that listen to this podcast are probably aware that your business hours really have a big impact. So that factor went from nothing straight to the top. Very important.

Conrad Saam:

We’re going to come back to, I want to quiz you about business hours. Keep going.

Darren Shaw:

Okay, great. The other one was whether or not your address is showing or not. Usually a big deal in legal, most everybody in legal has a physical office where they show their address. But in any home services type thing, if you hide your address, what we’re going to see is your rankings disappear. Where did they go? I used to rank great in Chicago, but I don’t rank in Chicago at all anymore. And so that’s happening. So is it a factor that if you remove your address from your profile, it impacts your rankings? The answer to that is yes. So it’s a factor. It came in as number seven. I describe in the report that I have some divergent theories, but what’s actually happening here? So that’s a thing that was new in the survey this year. And then of course the big one is I added a new column.

So you got to score every one of the 187 factors on how you think that factor impacts your visibility in AI search. So things like chat, GPT and Gemini, AI mode, those things. So those are the really, I would say the main highlights. The AI stuff was very interesting this year. Everyone’s thinking about that. Everyone’s looking to the future and wondering what are we going to do to make sure that if traditional SEO goes away and we only have an AI type thing, are we putting the things in place now to make sure that we continue to get visibility in that new search interface? I’d say that’s where all the big changes are.

Conrad Saam:

Love it. I’m going to come back to business hours. Go ahead. So for our listeners, you’re all lawyers in the legal world and one of the keys with local search ranking factors, when key and I read this, we read it from a legal perspective and so there’s a unique piece to this, but I want to read your comment about business hours because I’m just curious where you feel how this may apply to

Darren Shaw:

Legal. Sure.

Conrad Saam:

Some businesses are extending their hours to get some bonus ranking time and others are paying to call answering services so they can get their GPS to be open 24 7. All of our clients do both of things. I’m sure I’m wrong about that, but that’s fine. But you then add, this is fine for appointment only businesses, but do not list your hours other than what they actually are for any brick and mortar business where people might actually show up during your stated open hours, this will frustrate customers and could lead to negative reviews, blah blah. And it’s also against Google guidelines. Can we disambiguate these two things?

Darren Shaw:

Yeah, awesome conversation. Let’s talk about this specifically for legal. So the first thing for legal is that legal falls, in my opinion, typically under it’s a buy appointment only thing. It don’t typically have, I need a lawyer, I’m going to drive downtown and just walk into someone’s office. No one does that. And so

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Conrad

Darren Shaw:

Does well, okay, except for Conrad, he’s weird. Most people don’t do that. I need lots of lawyers. So the reality is is that I consider a law firm kind of like this weird hybrid, right? You have a physical location, you are absolutely justified to show your address because clients do come to your office and do get served. If you read the Google guidelines, it does say the hours that you put on your Google business profile should match when you actually serve customers in person. Yeah, there’s a bit of a conflict there because every lawyer wants to be 24 7. If someone has a personal injury accident at one o’clock in the morning and they go to Google, they want to be able to call and speak to somebody. I would say in legal, it’s a hybrid. I would not worry about the fact that it’s a guidelines violation. The guidelines are very loosey goosey. Google doesn’t enforce them. In the case of law, 24 7 is hands down my recommendation, you should get a call answering service and you should be answering calls 24 7 because there’s just so much value in those calls.

Conrad Saam:

Gee, do you have any pushback on any of that?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

No, I mean it’s table stakes. You have to be 24 7 in legal.

I think in professional service, and again, Darren made this point, but there’s a lot of places where Google’s guidelines, they don’t fit the real world perfectly yet. They’re working on it. And so again, if anybody’s listening to this, I would be like professional services. Now if you’re randomly in a town filled with people like Conrad and people do have the expectation that you just walk in off the street to grab some lawyers services, maybe you think about it because maybe someone’s going to show up and leave you a negative review. But by and large non-issue

Darren Shaw:

The benefit far away that risk though, the risk is someone’s going to come over your door. Just the fact that you can be ranking. If you are not 24 7, let’s say you close at 5:00 PM every day, that means all evening people that are open and especially in legal, it’s almost everybody that you just can’t compete.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And think about it from a legal services consumer standpoint, people, they need to be able to make these calls in off hours. I mean, think about all these different contexts, like if you’re working, you’re calling in off hours, obviously accidents happen in off hours, people get arrested in off hours, the list goes on.

Conrad Saam:

Let me ask the follow-up concern for the conservative white hat. I don’t want to run afoul of anything ever.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Listen,

Conrad Saam:

Well, yeah, good luck.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Don’t do local sio.

Conrad Saam:

There have been no instances that I am aware of any business, legal or otherwise where this has resulted in a night of sanction from Google.

Darren Shaw:

I’m also unaware of any time business hours has been a reason that a business has been unverified or suspended. I believe it may have happened. And if you want to spend a lot of time digging through the Google community help support form, you may find a case If you speak to all the product experts, they may be like, oh yeah, I helped a guy with that six months ago or something. It may happen in very rare cases. I usually think that what happens is if someone gets suspended or unverified, they will blame it on the thing that they thought it was. They’ll be like, well, I have the wrong hours on my profile. Exactly. That’s what I was going to say. It wasn’t that it was the fact that you have overlapping service areas. It was the fact that your address, Google lost confidence in that address because they realized, wait a minute, that’s the middle of a parking lot.

Something’s up here. So it’s usually something related to your location or do we think this is a real business that exists? And it wasn’t the hours that did it. It wasn’t the changing of your category that did it. It was something else, but you made that edit. Like let’s say you went and changed your business hours and then that caused a trigger for Google to just check the profile, something tripped to flag and then you got suspended for the thing that tripped to flag it wasn’t the hours. I think that’s a real common thing that happens.

Conrad Saam:

So it’s possible that if you think it was a competitor who burned your office and you actually go and do the research and you’ll find out that it was an ex-employee instead, that’s more likely to happen.

Darren Shaw:

That is a concern. And if you have an employee leave that has access to your Google business profile, put it on pure offboarding checklist to make sure that you were moving from your Google business profile

Conrad Saam:

Coming to you later from Lunch Hour, Legal Marketing, the episode about how to find out who’s been monkeying with your profile.

Darren Shaw:

You can’t, I wish you could actually.

Conrad Saam:

Oh you can. Sir. You and I should have a long conversation about this. We need to introduce you to something.

Darren Shaw:

Can we have a real short one right now? Tell me how you can find out.

Conrad Saam:

Yes, yes, yes. So I did it. So you sue Google, get the lawyers involved. Get the lawyers

Darren Shaw:

Involved. Oh, okay.

Conrad Saam:

Got to sue

Darren Shaw:

Google.

Conrad Saam:

Great. Got it. Let’s take a break. Gee, take it away.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yes. So I’ll compliment you. I love how you lay some of this information out in particular of this observations in terms of changes, noteworthy new factors, noteworthy factors that increase, noteworthy factors that decrease in importance. And I want people to go and get the whole thing here, but I wanted to call out a couple of these things. Linking out massively down internal links from GP landing pages to other websites, massively down keywords and services, massively up hours. We talked about in-store visits, not as much. I don’t know. We could talk about that in legal. We don’t really track that one because the same reason you already mentioned. And then engagement signals a bit up. My thing, I think we talked about this last time you were on, like I go through the map pack maps and local pack factors starting at the top and primary category, proximity keywords and business name. And I keep going down through these and I’m like in legal, these are all table stakes And Everybody can do ’em, right? There’s probably some exceptions as you start to get down. And then I was looking at your trends, your year over year trends and you, you’re like G signals, they went up, they looked like they went down, review signals, spiked links have been trending down. I think that’s been common in the industry. Mindset is link. There’s all these new signals, link signals start down, review signals are up. So tactically when you look at these factors, and you already said that you weren’t surprised by anything, does anything change for you from a prioritization standpoint after seeing these results? I know some people have been like, well, citations are back, I’m reprioritizing citations. What are your thoughts on that?

Darren Shaw:

So I would say that what you do is you aggregate all the opinions and then you put it out there. And for the people that don’t follow it as closely as us, there’s probably some surprises. But yeah, a hundred percent I am prioritizing citations more. It’s things like if you look at the AI search visibility factors, citations are three of the top five. So they are citation related.

Conrad Saam:

Have you refocused on citations because of AI or because of local,

Darren Shaw:

Because of ai?

Conrad Saam:

So that’s what I think the answer is. So citations, it’s an AI thing, it’s not a local thing.

Darren Shaw:

I wonder if AI has just revealed to us that citations were actually more important than we were really giving ’em credit for in local. So that is something where I’m like, it’s like when you strip away some of the other signals and you have to look at why LLMs are returning the results they are. They lean heavily on what is said about your business in the broader web. Are you listed on expert curated top 10 lists? Those things I believe would’ve helped you significantly in local before, but we weren’t really focused on them. It’s like AI has kind of lifted the veil on some of these things that we should have been a little bit more focused on before, but we were so Google, Google, Google, we were just too focused on everything being on your Google business profile on your website. And so we’ve expanded that and I think AI has just helped us see it a little bit better. So it is true that I am now more focused on citations because of AI and because I’m looking to the future and I want to make sure that I’m doing the things that’s going to help my clients rank really well or get visible in AI results. But I actually think I probably should have been doing this before it would’ve helped me on the local PACS as well.

Conrad Saam:

The guys at Near Media would to some extent agree with you based on some of their research.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah, well I talked to them a couple hours ago and we kind of had a similar conversation. And so yeah, I think it is interesting. Yeah. The other thing is review diversity. So I would’ve prior to the AI really getting in our faces about making sure you’re visible in ai, I would’ve always said, well, Google’s number one, you got to have great reviews on Google. And I still say that of course, because where the reviews really matter and the reviews are going to help you both for ranking the local pacs, but also most lawyers are probably doing local services ads. And so the reviews are super important there too. And so Google reviews are still king, but thinking to a future, diversifying your reviews on sites like Facebook, any industry specific, any legal specific sites like the big ones like lawyers.com, getting your reviews on avo, one of your favorites, Conrad,

Conrad Saam:

Those I was going to say, if you don’t say AVO after the big ones, I’m going to be

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Conrad. Do you still get a dividend payment from them?

Conrad Saam:

No, it was a sale. Beautiful. Which means I don’t have to say nice things about them anymore, right?

Darren Shaw:

Yeah, but you know what? They’re prominent. They’re still out there, right? So you got to get the reviews on these legal sites and the nice thing is that Chay, PT and Gemini, they’ll tell you which sites are the most prominent in the industry and you should listen.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Google tells you that too.

Conrad Saam:

Yeah, I know, but again, this is an AI thing and it is not a local search thing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, hold on a second. I’m saying

Darren Shaw:

It’s both.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, exactly. It is both. Thank you. Because again, you go through here and you look at the, I’m going to go back to the research 2026 AI search visibility factors. Let me name out a couple of these top factors. Presence of business on expert curated, best of and similar sites. Guess what? That’s local. SEO. We’ve been talking about that forever. It would be so valuable for your

Conrad Saam:

Local factor. This is a very real question. Do you believe Darren, that reviews on AVO or Yelp are going to help a lawyer rank in the local pack?

Darren Shaw:

Yes.

Conrad Saam:

Reviews on Ava and Yelp are going to push that into the local pack.

Darren Shaw:

A hundred percent. I do believe that.

Conrad Saam:

Yes.

Darren Shaw:

I would love to test it a real, it’s hard to find a lawyer that’s not doing SEO, but you find one who’s not doing anything and then you just somehow blast a bunch of reviews on AVO and Yelp. I would expect to see their local PAC rankings go up too.

Conrad Saam:

I think my problem with that, and this is why I question it, you also have to find a market where there are no one with a hundred or fewer. It would be it’s an impossible, you can’t do

Darren Shaw:

It in legal. Legal lawyers are too on top of this. You have to pick accountants or engineers.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

So what I’m saying is lemme ask you a question. Lemme ask you a question guys. You guys know Google, right? Google’s tight on data. Third data company. Google puts the Facebook reviews in the one box. They put other site reviews in the one box. Do you think if they weren’t using that, that they would be putting that in there the way that they’re doing it? No.

Darren Shaw:

It’s too against one here, Conrad. It definitely it is. I think they’re using the reviews.

Conrad Saam:

I’m thinking practically for a lawyer, I’m just trying to come up with a case in which I would be like,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Listen, lemme read something to you. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Go ahead.

Conrad Saam:

As advice to an attorney, I’ve got someone who wants to leave me a raving review and we’re going to skip the cut and paste your review onto 50

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Different. Yeah, you’re saying it’s hard. It’s hard.

Conrad Saam:

No, I’m just saying where would I prioritize someone throwing that review for ranking in the local pack for ranking in the local pack?

Darren Shaw:

Hundred percent. It’s Google. Agree.

Conrad Saam:

That’s my point. That agree? That’s what I’m

Darren Shaw:

Coming. Agree. Your point is valid and taking and I agree with it. I’m just saying, but that’s not what you asked though, Conrad. That’s what you asked people looking at the other sites, do they have value? Yes. And will they have value, especially in an AI only world that we’re heading towards maybe more.

Conrad Saam:

And that was the gist of my comment is it’s like for the future are things changing because of where AI is drawing from 100%.

Darren Shaw:

Your review strategy probably doesn’t change that much. And I’ll tell you why. I think because Chad GPT doesn’t really have access to the review data that Google has, but I don’t think Chad GP is going to win. I think Google is going to crush them in a no doubt Google’s going to crush ’em so hard because no doubt Google has the Google business profile database. They have all that insane rich data. Every business in the world cares about that one profile and they’re updating it and making sure it’s hot

Conrad Saam:

And they’re listening in on your calls.

Darren Shaw:

They’re listening in on your calls, all the

Conrad Saam:

LSA calls. That’s the bigger thing for me is that data is unbelievable.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

How about this? How about this near media? You say what I’m

Darren Shaw:

Thinking, gee,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Let’s hear. No, go ahead. Go ahead and you say what I want to hear. You’re the guest. You’re the

Darren Shaw:

Guest. The other thing Google has that chat GPT and the rest cannot ever compete with is behavioral signals. They got Chrome. It’s like we know that Google has shifted so much. You see that links in the report go down and down and down is important what’s being replaced with behavioral signals. Totally. And that’s because there’s no better real world signal to say, does the user like this result? Did they like this Google business profile? Do they

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Like we know they’ve always been using that.

Darren Shaw:

Of course they’ve always been using it. They’ve been quiet about it. Like we don’t want man,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It’s indirect. It’s indirect. Just training. Just training ranking

Conrad Saam:

Factor. I was very naively optimistic. I thought Matt was telling us the truth all along.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Here’s the other Google thing that I wanted to throw in there, and I think this is, it’s in near media. Guys presented this at Bright Locals, SEO for goods. You may have already heard this, but their research that we partnered with them to do for lawyer lookups, less than 2% of the survey respondents said that they would use an AI tool. Now they probably don’t think of aios as an AI tool. So are they conflating on Aios? Maybe. But my point is I feel pretty strongly that while they’re using chat GPT for research about their cases for lawyer lookups, it’s a Google world. It is a Google world,

Darren Shaw:

All of local. I would say it’s a Google world because totally, it doesn’t matter what industry. If you are an industry where you get some variety of leads from Google’s local results, then nobody’s like, I’m looking for a plumber. You know where I’m going to go? I’m going to go to Angie’s list.com and run a search. It doesn’t happen.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I mean are your choices, so if you’re chat GPT, you’re not building this thing by the way. I mean we could do a whole segment on this. I don’t even know if they’re going to exist. I mean I don’t know what their business model is yet, but it’s going to be ads eventually. But assuming that they survive, they’re not building this. They have to choose, are you going to show Google Map results or you going to show Apple Map results, right? I mean those are your options.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Apple is the only one that maybe has a chance

Darren Shaw:

To disrupt things. They actually have a massive user base, but no one can displace Google. They are just too, they have everything. And I think the meat, they’re smart. They’re like, dear Chad, GPT, please release the thing first. This great idea you have. Go ahead, put it out there in the world. Yeah, nice job being first to market with that one. We’ll take that now they have everyone uses Google. They can just wait and see how they innovate and they’d be like, that’s a good idea, let’s do it.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And again, for me, out of all of this conversation, I used to come back to the same thing and I’m like out of all the things we can say, the only thing I might reprioritize is this idea of citations, but we’ve been talking about that forever anyway. And even though I’m the links guy, if you get a link, great, but it’s more just about getting talked about and written about and spoken about and yada yada yada about, I mean that is what the prominence factor is

Darren Shaw:

Pr,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Digital

Darren Shaw:

PR stuff.

Conrad Saam:

Let me ask you guys this, and I think this is something that we don’t, the audience probably doesn’t think through enough. We talk about table stakes. There’s a table stake set of places where you can get legal citations or local citations or nationwide citations. We talked about, and I’ll use it as a parallel to links, the easy to get links aren’t going to get you anywhere because it’s stable stakes and the win is when you can do stuff that’s above and beyond. Where do you think, and what tactically would you share with people if we’re really excited about citations? You mentioned digital pr. What would you recommend people do from a tactical level to drive citations that the 17 other lawyers in Poughkeepsie can’t do?

Darren Shaw:

I wouldn’t be surprised if we see some of these expert curated top 10 lists become auction-based, where it’s like, I really want my personal injury firm to be listed on the Chicago top 10 Forbes, fricking Forbes. I was just going to say, it’s Forbes, right? You’re talking Forbes, right? Don’t Forbes. This isnt new. It’s not new

Conrad Saam:

Rages. Gee,

Darren Shaw:

It’s the worst.

Conrad Saam:

Right? You know what? I would like all of our listeners to please get, gee, a subscription to the printed version of Forbes.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Conrad is so happy you brought us Forbes there. You don’t even understand how much Ive been avo. I’ve been flaming Forbes.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah, honestly, I got personal injury lawyer clients. I want them on that top 10 list on Forbes.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Their SEO O is

Darren Shaw:

You want them and I will pay. What’s it going to cost? Tell me. So I actually see them going to an auction model where they just start like, well, I don’t know. Philip’s law said that they’ll give us $10,000. What are you going to give us? So I think it’s a bit of a problem.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It’ll be like Google. No, just like Google. Google’s an auction

Darren Shaw:

Model too. Let’s go to the no paid links, right?

Conrad Saam:

No paid top 10 list for ai.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah. Okay, so let me answer your question legitimately. So I feel like digital PR is important and I think actually it is a current differentiator because a lot of law firms are not doing it. The good ones are. Yeah, for sure. The smart ones who are really invested

Are doing real digital pr. We’re talking about PR stunts, we’re talking about news jacking. We are saying, oh yeah, there’s this whole, oh look, flying cars are coming out. My personal injury lawyer is going to do a whole research project on the implications and talk about it. And then they’re going to hire PR professionals to pitch their take on it and their research and their data to all the different news outlets and you’re going to try really hard to get mentions in those places. One of the things that came up with regards to the decline of links, which I think is relevant to this conversation, it’s really interesting to think about is we have seen links drop in value and importance. You get all the links and you’re like, well, it didn’t seem to move the needle the way it used to really drive the needle. We’re really seeing that pinched now. And another thing we are seeing that is in our current search world, it’s very few people on websites reading content and clicking links. So when AI overviews take over, you don’t have to go to that webpage. So is it possible that links have just been a proxy for behavior signals the whole time?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yes, yes, yes.

Darren Shaw:

So isn’t that an interesting concept? It’s like we always thought, oh, you got to get that link on that page because the link is going to help you rank better on Google. But it was never the link. It was the fact that when you put that link on, you are driving more people to your site through that link. And so today you’re going to go to all these link marketplace, these guest post places, no one ever visits that page. So that link is potentially

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Valueless. I mean shout to Bill Slosky, RIP, but this is reasonable surfer. We knew that the links that were more prominent on a page, that was a more traffic page, those tended to do better and the patent support that

Darren Shaw:

It’s like we’re finally like, oh yeah, face the whole

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Time.

Conrad Saam:

Do we need to get Gyi a shirt that says meh behavioral signals?

Darren Shaw:

Yes, that’s a great

Conrad Saam:

Idea.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I’m going to have to come up with something more clever than that, but I’ll tell you what I have been saying because I know people are like, you’re the links guy, what do you think? I’m like, if anything, it’s meth reviews

Darren Shaw:

For sure.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And that’s the thing. And in legal, it’s a real bunny because people are spending a lot of money buying fake reviews and even though Google is trying so hard apparently to get rid of these fake so hard, what I see is it’s a rampant, rampant problem and the state bars aren’t doing anything. The FTC isn’t doing anything. I keep hearing about all these lawsuits coming and class actions and attorney generals are clamping down it. I’m like, someone is

Conrad Saam:

Going to be made an example of

Gyi Tsakalakis:

One person and then

Darren Shaw:

We’ll all go back to normal, go back to buying our fake reviews.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

So that’s a real problem for me. But I think the reviews, I think this is mentioned in the report,

Darren Shaw:

It’s

Gyi Tsakalakis:

The consistency, recency for sure. Recent reviews. So again, we tell people all the time, we’re like try to find ways to get those reviews to drip in. Lawyers will do the thing. Actually we talked to Conrad and I just talked about this in our last recording. Lawyers got to get creative about finding different ways to get reviews. Some lawyers are doing focus groups or getting reviews for another context, speaking events. That’s great. Except those are usually not a steady drip. They’re like a one time. Yeah, exactly.

Conrad Saam:

So one of the things in the survey that did surprise me consistently across multiple questions when it came to reviews, the prioritization was on the quality of the review. Literally the star rating.

Darren Shaw:

Well, near media’s data backs that up. If you watch 200 people search for a lawyer and how do they interact with the search results and what do they do? People are lazy and they don’t have time. They’re not going to sit there and read all the reviews. I

Conrad Saam:

Do think no, no one reads the reviews, right?

Darren Shaw:

Yeah. I do think there’s value in the review content and we know that Google pulls it in, you see it appear in place topics, you see it get pulled into justifications. Google is absolutely ingesting the content of the reviews and some of the content there can have a positive impact on your rankings for sentiment and things that are said

Conrad Saam:

And specifically. Sure, sure. I’m just saying the survey really pushed quality, the star rating of the reviews and I have always assumed that is just kind of a given.

Darren Shaw:

Well, but what is it? It’s a survey of you tell me what’s important and sure it’s a given, but it’s still important. It is important. So it’s going to go to the top of the list because it really is a massive factor.

Conrad Saam:

I would’ve put volume over quantity over quality.

Darren Shaw:

Sorry, over rating. Over rating.

Conrad Saam:

Yes.

Darren Shaw:

I don’t agree with that necessarily. Imagine your rating was 3.1 and you had 10,000 of ’em. That would be a major red

Conrad Saam:

Flag. No, I get that. I’m just saying that that does not exist,

Darren Shaw:

Right? You live in a legal world. It exists in our world. It

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Exists, but here’s to the point, they don’t rank. You never see it. They don’t that have those and they don’t

Conrad Saam:

Rank. That’s the thing. Maybe that is self-fulfilling.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah, you must have a high rating. And actually let’s debate this. I’m very curious about, you guys’ take on this. There is a stat in the industry put forth by some review site. I’m sure at some point that the very best possible rating, I think Harvard did a study 27 years ago and they said that a rating between 4.2 and 4.7 is the sweet spot. If I watch actual people like my wife run a search for something on the internet and you got a 4.7, a 4.8 and a 5.0, the 4.7 or the 4.8 have immediately been disqualified. So she only goes to the, oh, well this must be the best one. And so there’s this stat that it’s actually better to have a 4.8 because it doesn’t look manipulative. It doesn’t look like you are buying reviews or it looks more authentic like, oh, that’s got to be real. I actually am starting to think that in the real world when you get out of our local search world, that people actually really are drawn to a 5.0. What are your thoughts on this?

Conrad Saam:

So I can tell you, and I think this study, I don’t know this, I’m going way back in the depths of my brain to 2007. I think the study actually might’ve been a Greg Sterling study

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And near media, we have I think research on this in legal, but it’s old. No, no, but hold on. The study is, the study is

Conrad Saam:

The study is old and this, so I’ll tell you this and this part I know for sure and I think it was a Greg Sterling study. My talking points for people when I was at AVO taking the barbs and arrows of angry lawyers, which was the best job I’ve ever had in my life. Got

Darren Shaw:

A bad review,

Conrad Saam:

I got a bad review. Fuck you. And my answer was always our talking point. Well, I was like, listen, well, it just goes to show that people who are seeing this are, it was those talking points. Exactly. And I do believe that was based on a, and it may not be Greg, but I do believe it was based on a Greg Sterling study when he was at Gartner or Gartner Group.

Darren Shaw:

Oh yeah. If he was there, I do think it was a Gartner study.

Conrad Saam:

I think I’ve got this right and I’m probably, I’m 40% certain I’ve got this right.

Darren Shaw:

Okay. But I think times have changed.

Conrad Saam:

Lemme ask you. So that’s the point. Listen to this. Have times changed on this? Go

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Ahead. We know the answer to this question. This is part of our research.

Conrad Saam:

I just wasn’t sure how much you were going to share.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

This was presented at the summit.

Conrad Saam:

I know, but that was for the people who went to the summit. It was a special

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Group. We don’t know if we’re allowed to share this or not, but we’re going to share it, Darren anyway, why don’t share generically. We can cut it

Darren Shaw:

Later if you want. We

Conrad Saam:

Can cut it

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Later. Darren, take a guess. Median ratings and reviews of the results receiving clicks. 4.9 for both Gbps and LSAs

Darren Shaw:

Either, in my

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Opinion.

Darren Shaw:

You’ve already seen it. You’ve already seen it. Or it’s 5.0.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It’s 4.9. You already saw it. Now here’s what’s interesting. Median review volume for GS and LSAs

Darren Shaw:

Industry and city dependent though.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Fair enough. This was supposed to be a representative sample of US census breakdown nationally.

Darren Shaw:

So they’re doing small towns, big towns, all areas legal or just one area?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It’s all personal injury,

Darren Shaw:

All pi. Okay. Then median volume of reviews. You told me at the beginning it was 400,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

So 3 35 for gbps?

Darren Shaw:

Yeah,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

7 74 for LSAs.

Darren Shaw:

Wow, that is huge, right? 7 74.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

So you need to be a four nine and a 700 reviews

Darren Shaw:

To get it click

Gyi Tsakalakis:

To even play ball. It’s a

Conrad Saam:

Volume

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Game. I agree. Well, it’s both. It’s both. Because again, Conrad, these are the ads getting clicked and the listings getting clicked. You can have 700 reviews, but if you’re a three, forget about

Conrad Saam:

It. No, no, I get that. I’ve never seen that.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

What do you mean you haven’t seen it? Oh, you haven’t seen it in the wild

Conrad Saam:

700 reviews that average a three?

Darren Shaw:

No. Yeah, it’s like a restaurant.

Conrad Saam:

You know

Darren Shaw:

What it is? They’re they’re down deep. You got to go deep up find and said down with Trump and they go bunch negative reviews. It’s like that kind of a thing would cause that, right.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I’ll tell you this. There are plenty. I mean I think this drives the point home though. It is so detrimental to you that you are buried in the finder when you have those kind of ratings. They’re there, but we never see them.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah, don’t see page.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

They’re page two. What else, Darren, we have taken up far too much of your time. We are

Conrad Saam:

One question. We’re just having a chit chat. One last question. Local service ads, I mean, what is the takeaway on LSAs from the survey results?

Darren Shaw:

Well, the survey results give us, I like to highlight four specific factors that are really going to have an impact on your ability to be present at the very top, which is you need to be for LSAs and they are one of course budget and bidding. You got to max that crap out. Google’s going to take whoever the highest bidder is so everyone already knows that reviews and review recency massive. So we talked about that a little bit already, but yeah, super big important factor for LSAs. You must have reviews coming on time and we actually see it happen. We see our clients get displaced when it’s been a week since they got a review and damn competitors getting three per day. We see that such a common thing in the local services ad. So review recency, really big, big signal to rank in the local services ads.

The other one is service selection. That feels obvious. It’s just like optimizing your profile, choosing the things that you do, and then of course response times is number four. Response times is like someone calls you can answer right away. Someone messages you got to answer right away. That’s are really big factors and so that’s what the people that do LSAs that contribute to the survey have really kind of put as high. There is a factor that I believe you guys are really dialed in on that I also feel quite strongly about, and you mentioned it earlier, Conrad is what is said on the calls. I think that Google is listening to these calls and they’re listening to find out, did we make a good match? If you are declining cases on the call, stop it because that is sending the signal to Google. You don’t want ’em. Google will be like, ah, this one law firm that we keep sending the leads to,

Conrad Saam:

They’re really picky.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah. They’re just like, no, no, no, no. We are not creating good user experience for our LSA customers. We want to create a good user experience and this law firm man, they’ll take anything. Let’s, let’s send all the garbage to them because they’re going to take everything.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Darren, you are so kind and optimistic. The real reason is because they’re not getting paid.

Darren Shaw:

Right? Then it gets declined. Yeah. Oh, you’re right. I’m way too kind and optimistic. You’re a hundred percent correct on this.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

You maximize Google getting paid. You send all the positive signals you can. This is the best marketing program I’ve ever had in my life. You rate all the leads, tens, it prompts you to rate them. You say, thank you so much, Google, may I have another? I am telling

Conrad Saam:

You, you have another, please. There we go. There’s the title for the talk today. I’m telling you, sir, may I have another?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I’m telling you, just was telling Conrad this. I just went in this morning and looked a firm that I pay very close attention to. I was like, look, I got to test this theory out. We’re just going to say yes, yes, yes. On massive budget rate, the leads, their impression share went from 6% year over year to 18%,

Darren Shaw:

But you got to pay for the lead, and sometimes

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That’s a problem.

Darren Shaw:

It is going to be a thousand is going to be 2000. Some of these leads.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That’s why the thing that Conrad, I talk about all the time, you have to have a sophisticated data infrastructure to be able to say, my firm, this cost per client through LSAs still makes sense when we buy it like this and when it delivers this kind of vibe and it’s not

Conrad Saam:

For everybody. That’s not that hard because it is a direct response vehicle. If you turn off direct brand search

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And you ask, how’d you hear about us? Yep. I got one more. Sorry. I know we’re supposed to

Conrad Saam:

Wrapping up one more. I was just trying to wrap. Darren’s tired of us.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I’ll take it. We didn’t talk about user behavior. You had mentioned something, and I know images I think are probably an underappreciated asset in local and in fact the other day, Josh Hodges, we were talking about vanity metric phone numbers. I showed him that Google, there was no text phone number on this page and Google was able to match an image from an ad that contained his phone number to a search on the phone number, which demonstrates that Google can read the pictures essentially. So words on images in local map, information on images, and finding ways to use imagery and video content to inspire clickthroughs. What do you think of those ideas?

Darren Shaw:

I love all those ideas.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Conrad’s always telling me that that’s click manipulation to try to put images in that try to warrant

Conrad Saam:

Clicks. It is click manipulation. I didn’t,

Darren Shaw:

Google’s going to police that.

No. Google’s going to love that. They love it. To Gee’s point, I am all about this strategy. I want your images to be compelling, particularly the primary image on your Google business profile text on it. You can’t over text it or Google reject it, but you want text on that image because if you take a graphic, if you take any photo and you throw it into Gemini or chat GPT and you say, please describe this image in detail, you’d be like, what? The ais can see this image in more detail than my own human eyes can. Yes, it can. It really understands the image in an amazing way. And so the image itself is conveying so much information. Are you uploading photos on your Google business profile every week? Well, you should be, and I also like to, I want to hold their hand. I’m going to hold the AI’s hand and actually put text caption on the image, the actual text. I want real text overlaid on top of that image, almost all the images uploaded to the Google business profile plus the images on my website, and I want to do that because it actually helps humans, helps humans anchor your text. What is this an image about? Well tell them, but you’re also telling the robots and I think there’s huge value in that, is a very underutilized strategy as you highlighted. Gee, I’m a hundred percent in agreement with you on this, and so making your images compelling. Absolutely.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Awesome. Darren, thank you. Thank you, thank you. You are generous. You are doing our entire industry a tremendous service with this report and we are so grateful to be a part of it.

Darren Shaw:

Well, thanks for having me guys. It was really fun to chat with you. I got to call out your awesome cool clocks behind you. Gee, those look familiar.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

They are. I can. Thank you for these clocks. Let’s see if I can get this right here.

Conrad Saam:

By the way, this is the seventh time Gyi has pandered to Darren today.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, let’s Scott Thrift is the artist. Pretty outstanding. The present is the art and they are beautiful and I love them. They’re

Announcer:

So cool. I know.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

They do exactly what the artist said, which is they make you think about time and reflect on time in different ways, and so thank you Darren and Scott.

Darren Shaw:

Yeah, they’re so cool. I had them in my office before too, but now we have all three of them, so they’re in a row in the kitchen they look really cool. They’re really great.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I couldn’t get mine in a row because I don’t have enough wall space, so

Darren Shaw:

I’ll

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Have to move. But thanks for noticing those.

Darren Shaw:

Yep. Alright guys, thanks for having me. It a pleasure chatting with you and thanks so much to both of you for completing the grueling survey and attributing your local search expertise and insights to the survey. It’s a real gift to the local search community. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Grateful for it. Thanks, Darren. Okay. Alright

Conrad Saam:

Everyone, this is Gyi Con and Darren Shaw.

Announcer:

Thank you for listening to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. If you’d like more information about what you heard today, please visit legal talk network.com. Subscribe via Apple Podcasts and rss. Follow Legal Talk Network on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram.

Conrad Saam:

Google, Google, Google. Boom. We’ve both had too much coffee. Always.

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