Lights, Camera, Marketing! Making a Better Impression on Camera.

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Managing your law practice can be challenging, marketing, time management, attracting clients, and all the things besides the cases that you need to do that aren’t billable. Welcome to this edition of the Unbillable Hour, the Law Practice Advisory podcast. This is where you’ll get the information you need from expert guests and host Christopher Anderson here on Legal Talk Network.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Welcome to the Unbillable Hour. I am your host, Christopher Anderson. And today’s episode, once again actually is about marketing, but we’re really going to be talking about marketing you and I’m really excited. This is a topic we haven’t really covered ever, and one I think that is becoming more and more relevant for our listeners. So we’ll be getting to it in just a second. Once I remind you that we are always talking about the mean triangle of what it is that a law firm business must do, we must acquire new clients. That’s what we’re talking about today through acquisition. We must produce then the results that we promised to them in production, and we have to achieve the business and professional results for the owners. In the center of that triangle, driving it all for better or worse is you. And today we’re going to be talking about you because we’re going to be talking about how you can improve your skill of showing up on camera. Our guest today is Kerry Barrett. Kerry is an Emmy award winning former NBC News anchor turned on camera authority coach. She helps lawyers transform from camera shy and stiff into confident, credible communicators who own the virtual Courtroom, the Courtroom of life, I guess client meetings and media opportunities. Through her coaching and frameworks, carry teaches attorneys how to project authority, build trust, and attract high value clients every time that little red light goes on. Kerry, welcome to the show.

Kerry Barrett:

I am thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me. That little red light is the devil for most of us.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah, I’ve seen people do, it’s like freeze and some people turn it on. But let’s just before we get started into the meat and potatoes of this, let’s just talk a minute about how do you go from NBC news anchor to helping lawyers, coaching lawyers for their authorit on camera?

Kerry Barrett:

Oh, that is good question. And it is a story that has many twists and turns. So

You referenced that I was in the media, I was on air as a news anchor for 20 years. I have a couple of Emmys under my belt for my on-camera work, some tele awards as well. I left the news industry in 2019, really for no other reason other than I was exhausted. Still love the news business, love the people that I worked with and met, but as a mother of three young children, waking up at 1230 in the morning for me anyway, at that point in my life was unsustainable. So I left without a clear path as to what was coming next.

What I knew I could do was talk on camera, then create video as a result of that. And so I started a LinkedIn profile and my goal was I expected I would go into some sort of public speaking. I wasn’t exactly sure. What I found though was as I was posting video, and I should tell you, I did this with zero strategy. It was, Hey, I’m speaking here, buy a ticket, that sort of stuff. What I found was people were less interested in the public speaking component, although there were still interest there, but what they really were interested in was how do you speak so confidently and compellingly on camera? You seem very comfortable. You seem very natural. Well, of course I was because I had done it for 20 years.

I was terrible when I first started. Terrible and terrified. And it was the evolution of having people and then potential clients reach out to me asking me this specific question. And what I found when I went back and looked at where those clusters of clients landed in terms of their industry, I found many of them were in the legal space. And if they weren’t lawyers, they were CMOs of law firms or they were in business development. And so it made sense for me to target, I hate to use that word, but you need to speak to somebody when you’re marketing. Absolutely. So it made sense for me to talk to those people. I think my skills have a very strong overlap with what lawyers in general are looking to portray on camera. Nobody’s doing TikTok dances. Most aren’t anyway or happy most aren’t.

I was going to say, I am sure there’s a few lawyers out there who are, but they’re not my clients. What they do want to do is learn to speak compellingly and authoritatively and in a way that garners trust from their audience. And as you mentioned, it is applicable in a variety of different scenarios. Whether you are speaking on camera for virtual court or you are trying to teach your client how to speak on camera for let’s say a virtual deposition, it has to do with media opportunities. I have clients right now who are regulars on the BBC and on M-S-N-B-C, and I have clients who are looking to develop this skill because they want to create marketing videos or sales videos or website videos or whatever. So the skills, while there is some nuance on the platform in which you’re planning to use the skills we’re speaking on, camera fundamentals are the same no matter where you’re showing up.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Absolutely. And so coming from being an anchor, so where you were being called on and your skill, the required skill for you was to speak in a way that people, I guess would trust you, believe you believe in you find you credible. How does that translate for attorneys into the marketing space, right, because I mean, we all think of TV ads and they are ovarian quality, and some people show up in a credible way and some don’t. But is the anchor skill and the marketing skill translatable?

Kerry Barrett:

Absolutely, 100%. It’s the question I get all the time. It is. While anchoring is not purely marketing, in fact, when I was a journalist, I would sort of recoil from the marketing side of things because that was the selling side, for lack of a better word. It wasn’t the purity of the journalism. However, when I launched my own business off the back of being able to speak on camera, and I recognize now how the two relate, and you’re right, there are certainly, and I don’t want to pick on attorneys, although the podcast is The Un-Billable Hour, so I’m going to assume most of your audiences, most if not all space, there is a set of tendencies that is seen quite often in that particular demographic. And the tendency, the biggest one that I see is perfectionism, which is something I struggled with as well. The reason I was so terrible and terrified when I first started now 25 years ago in the news industries, because I thought everything needed to be absolutely perfect.

And when you think about the training that an attorney goes through starting an undergrad, and as a law student, one typo in a document renders the entire thing null and void. And that same mindset is very often brought to the camera. And you’re doing yourself and your audience a disservice when you bring that mindset to the camera because it means a couple of things. Number one, it often means that you’re stiff and robotic. It means that you’re unrelatable. It’s very hard to generate trust. It’s not where video shines. Video is not a virtual white paper. Video is much better with generating trust and connection. It’s very hard to translate one skill, even if you’re great in the Courtroom and you can compel a jury and a judge is on the edge of their seat waiting for the next thing to come out of your mouth. That skill is not necessarily directly transferable to sitting in front of a camera. I don’t want to say an entirely different skillset, but there are absolute nuances and differences between the way those two mediums work. So to get around, to answer your question, they’re absolutely relatable. The two go hand in hand, they’re just not exactly the same.

Christopher T. Anderson:

I got it because, well, I, and I think in today’s world, we also have to talk about now for nothing. 10 years ago, we weren’t all sitting in front of a camera all damn day, but now we are. Right? I am looking right up like I got this camera’s sitting right here that stares at me all day every day, and I’m talking to people on camera, but it’s not the same thing either, is it? I mean, just because even this, the one thing that’s different about this interview than about television is you are on here looking back at me and when I’m on tv, I’ve just got that one big eye looking at me and it doesn’t ever blink. So how does the experience that people have being in front of the Zoom or Microsoft Teams camera differ from being on camera?

Kerry Barrett:

Being on tv, you mean?

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah.

Kerry Barrett:

Yeah. So a couple of things. I’m actually not looking at you right now. I’m looking into my camera lens, which is where your eye is. So when you’re thinking about, again, whether you’re creating video for social media or you’re sitting in front of a client on a consult or a potential client on a consult, your client’s eye is the camera lens and your client’s ear is the microphone. So if you want to connect with your client, and again, this applies to the podcast, it applies to, applies to media interviews. You want to be looking into the camera and recognizing that you have to self moderate and regulate in terms of your delivery, because I’m missing all of your nonverbals. I can see a blurry little version of Christopher down to the left on my monitor, but I can’t see what you’re doing. So I have to regulate myself. And for a lot of people, even the ones who are great speaking on a stage, when they get in that space and they feel like they’re talking to themselves, things begin to spiral. And when you get in your head and you start thinking about what you’re doing with your hands and where you’re looking, it’s very hard to bring those two trains of thought back together so that you’re able to communicate in a way that is again, compelling, interesting, engenders trust and authority at the same time.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah, though I imagine in an actual in-person meeting, nobody, the producer, the audience, one of the producer just before we got started asked Kerry to make sure she was within one foot of the microphone. We don’t recommend that with someone’s ear.

We don’t ever do that. Listen, what we’re going to do here for a second is toss this over to our sponsors, give them a chance to have their thing, and then we’re going to come back and when we come back, we’re going to talk about the hard skills, why this is different and what happens to people when that little red light does come on. But first, we’re going to turn on the little blue light. There’s no real blue light that says the sponsors are talking. And here we go With that, we’ll be back in a second. We are back with Kerry Barrett. Kerry, if you’ll remember, is an Emmy award-winning former NBC news anchor. But we’re talking today about lawyers in front of the television camera. And Kerry, we were talking kind of just about some of the basics before, but I want to kind of drill in a little bit because one thing you mentioned, which is very true I’ve seen it, is lawyers who are brilliant in the Courtroom, who are great on their feet, who can keep a jury raptured, sit in front of a television camera and everything changes. What’s going on with that?

Kerry Barrett:

It’s so interesting that you mentioned that. And I will say this, it doesn’t have to even be a television camera. It can be, I have a client that I’m working with right now who sat on a video that he created for his website for nine months because he couldn’t get the words out in the way that he wanted them to get out. And when he finally went back and watched, he absolutely hated it. So

It doesn’t even necessarily need to be on live tv. It can be on recorded video or again, a video podcast or a podcast like we’re on right now. The challenge is Laird. So number one, somebody who’s very good in person often feeds on the crowd. It’s one of the things they’ve learned to do. They are able to regulate and moderate their delivery based on what they’re seeing in front of them. If people are shuffling or moving or fidgeting in their chairs or they’re scrolling through their phone, they realize they need to create a pattern interrupt. And whether they do that through their voice or the way that they move their body on the stage, or it’s a pause or it’s a story or something like that, they can take that real time feedback and they can create that pattern interrupt. And if you’re not familiar with what a pattern interrupt, it’s basically where something changes in your delivery and it reengages the audience.

When you are talking to a camera, again, whether it’s live or whether you’re by yourself or you are on a podcast, you don’t necessarily have that feedback. You certainly don’t if you’re recording a video by yourself for a YouTube video or a social media video or your website for that matter. And so what happens is most of the time people get very focused instead on what they’re saying. They get in their heads, and when they get very focused on the words, what happens is you lose connection with them. And then it really doesn’t matter what you’re saying. You come off as if you’re reading a hostage note or you are reading off of a teleprompter. And when you look like you’re doing those things, you’re doing yourself a disservice because you are undercutting your authority and you are undercutting your ability to generate trust because you look like you’re just saying words rather than actually believing in what you’re saying.

And that right there, the crux of where a lot of the challenges and issues stem from, do you need to spend 20 years in front of a camera to get it right? No, you don’t. And you’re not doing hours upon hours upon hours of live television in front of millions of people. I mean, if you’re doing it really well, maybe you get to, but my point is that right there is where most of the problem stems from, and for most people, it’s a mindset issue. They don’t understand what they’re doing or why they’re doing it, and they’re falling back on crutches, and that’s where things begin to go south.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. Well, that makes sense. So I know this is actually what you do, so I don’t want to, don’t give away all the secrets, but can we talk about just some lawyers are sitting here paying attention to the show and just knowing that they don’t feel awkward, that they don’t feel natural, that they feel awkward or even worse, what I see with a lot of folks is they feel just fine and then they watch it and they’re like, oh my God, I can’t put that out there. What are some quickie techniques? Something simple, something easy for people to digest here on the show that can help with that to look sound more confident on air.

Kerry Barrett:

Absolutely. I love it. All right, so I walk people through a framework that I call my MVP framework. The first we touched on, which is mindset. The other two components of delivering with authority in a way that creates trust and is compelling are your vocal variety, the V and your physical performance or presence, the P. So vocal variety has to do with pitch, pacing, projection, and pronunciation. I kind of put pronunciation to the side. That’s not as big of an issue, but the way that you use your voice for video or anytime you’re on camera is one of the most underrated components of speaking rather compellingly on camera. We think of video certainly as a visual medium, and it absolutely is. But what that often means is that people put their voice on the back burner, and what happens is they end up speaking in sort of a staccato or in a monotone sort of way, and that is boring.

It doesn’t engender trust, and it certainly doesn’t engender authority. And so think about your voice once you’re through mindset as the primary mode of selling and delivering yourself. I know selling is an icky word, but when you’re marketing your firm or you’re marketing your skills as an attorney, that is what you’re doing. And so using your voice to display your authority and your relatability is key. Now, one of the things that is, I mentioned that people sort of lose connection with what they’re saying because they’re so focused on getting the words out correctly. I always have a quick little, I call it the 30 and 30 day challenge that I suggest people pick up their phones for 30 seconds a day and practice delivering into your camera. This is for nobody other than yourself. You don’t have to talk about work. You can talk about your favorite bolognese recipe, a new restaurant.

You’re looking forward to trying whatever it is, and talk about that for 30 seconds and go back and look specifically at your vocal quality, where it is that you’re speeding up, where it is that you’re slowing down, are you even doing those things? And pick one element to work on and open up your phone the next day and for 30 seconds riff on the same thing and work on that one element and do that for 30 days. And then go back and look at the difference between day one and day 30, and I promise you’ll see a difference. Day 30 will be better, and you are absolutely right to just to underscore score. There is a very good chance. I’ve been doing this for a quarter of a century now. I still don’t like watching myself. I’ve never liked watching myself. I, in fact, usually don’t watch my videos when I post them on LinkedIn, which is my primary social media platform. But I know enough to know that I have the skills down and a couple of errors or an here or there isn’t going to kill my credibility and it’s not going to kill my relatability. And I know that by just putting it out without watching it, I’m going to get the videos out. They do about a video probably every day.

For most people, they’re going to have to watch until they get the baseline of skills and comfort level with being in front of the camera down that they can trust themselves enough and they can recognize in the moment that they did a good job and then they can post a video. So 30 and 30 is the first thing to do. The second element that I mentioned, the third element, MVP, the physical performance and presence, if you will, the biggest mistake people make there is a lack of energy. Anytime you’re in front of a camera, it’s energetically flattening. What I mean by that is you’ve got a bunch of hardware and a bunch of software. The quality of your voice, the quality of the image diminishes anytime it runs through a program or an internet connection. You also have the additional element of lack of context for both the viewer and for yourself as you’re delivering. You can’t see the viewer. And then you have the fact that on video, you’ve taken a 3D person and you’ve put them into this 2D box.

And

The way that that affects your energy when you’re delivering cannot be overstated.

And so what I suggest people do when they’re thinking, and it’s a balance because there’s a certain intimacy level to watching a video that’s not there. When you’re on a stage in front of thousands of people, people are scrolling on their phones, sometimes they’re laying in bed, who knows what they’re doing. They could be in the bathroom, people watch their phones everywhere, news, social media, whatever. So there isn’t an intimacy there as well. But generally speaking, here’s a very good gauge, a rule of thumb, when you are practicing your physical performance, think about if you were at a restaurant, a noisy restaurant, and you were at let’s say a table of eight and you were on one side of the table at one end and you were looking to talk to somebody else on the other side of the table at the other end, what are some of the things you would do to make sure that that person understood what you were trying to tell them over the din of the noise and the movement and everything else?

Christopher T. Anderson:

I’m going to go with not shout, right?

Kerry Barrett:

Not shout. You might project, you might project, but that’s more about using the power of your voice rather than the volume. You would probably lean forward when something is exciting. You might amplify your facial expressions. You would maybe use more hand gestures to underscore whatever it was that you were saying, I did three things and hold up three fingers, that sort of stuff. Conceptually, that is the very same way that you want to bring your energy to the camera. For most people, it’s about a 20% increase. And the only reason I know that is because of the coaches and the consultants that taught me the very same thing when I was first learning how to speak effectively on camera for the news industry.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Sure, yeah.

Kerry Barrett:

So when you’re doing this 30 and 30 day challenge, once you have your vocal stuff down, then go back and practice delivering with more energy and ramp it up and ramp it up and ramp it up and ramp it up until you feel crazy and then go back and watch. And that one where you feel crazy, maybe you’re a little over the top, but for most people, that’s about where they want to be.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Interesting. Yeah, I bet it is almost to the point of feeling a little uncomfortable.

Kerry Barrett:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Christopher T. Anderson:

So what we’re going to do so that our sponsors feel more comfortable, we’re going to take a break for their messages real quick here, and then when we come back, we’re going to talk about why any of this is important. So I think we’ve covered, we’ve only scratched the surface to be quite honest, but we’ve talked a bit about the skills that lawyers need to bring to the camera in order to be effective or more effective. But I think we should put some context around it as to why that matters. And so we’ll do that right after this message. We are back with Kerry Barrett, and we’ve been talking about the skills that lawyers need to have in front of a camera. You’ll remember Kerry is an Emmy award-winning former NBC news anchor. She knows what she’s talking about, but she’s been working with lawyers on getting them in front of the camera in a better, credible, looser, confident way.

And so we’ve been talking about some of those skills. Obviously there’s so many, this is what Kerry does for a living, but I think we got some really great pointers on that. But I wanted to spend a little bit of time in the show talk about why this is important. Why did we bring this to the show? We are lawyers, my listeners are lawyers. We don’t need to be or we don’t think we need to be, and we haven’t been trained to be on air personalities and going into this, you must carry, have a sense of why it’s really important for lawyers to be effective on camera, and it’s not really a choice or an option anymore. What’s going on? Why is this so important these days?

Kerry Barrett:

Have you heard of COVID? Yeah. Yeah. That’s really just one of the elements though. So certainly as a business owner myself, thrust into the thick of COVID, shortly after I launched my business, I became hyper aware of how important being able to communicate on camera was for my clients. At that point, many of them were attorneys, but they were mostly looking for video skills because they had a certain set of projects that were coming up. I have, for example, an AM law 100 firm who to the chair and co-chair of their employment practice group released a huge book each year. That’s sort of the Bible for CEOs. And they put together a series of videos every year as a way to generate press. And they wanted media training to be more effective on camera so that they could not only demonstrate their expertise and their skill, but also their trustworthiness when they were doing media interviews.

Part of that is their videos that they put together, but more often than not, most of my clients, which are generally solo practitioners or owner founders of small law firms, wanted the ability to speak compellingly on camera because they recognized the way marketing was moving. So for a long time, and I’m going to use a word that was used or a phrase I should say that was used by one of my now clients to me when he was asking about why he should be on video, and his question was, for a long time, any sort of advertisement came with a stigma. It came with a stigma. And this is his words of being a billboard attorney. And nobody wanted that, right? If you have to advertise, it means that you’re not very good. That’s his thoughts. What was his thoughts? We’re working together. Now, my point in all of this is the way that marketing is moving is in a digital path.

Younger consumers, younger potential clients are consuming on social, they are consuming online. Yes, referrals of course are still important, but they’re going to get a referral. And before they call you, they’re going to go online, they’re going to vet you. And if there is nothing there, they are likely, this is the younger generation. If you’re in your sixties or your fifties, you’re probably not operating this way. But if you’re in the younger generation, if there’s nothing online, it’s an immediate red flag. And so if you are not on camera in a way that is bolstering your authority, your credibility, and again, your trustworthiness, it is a huge red flag for your younger clients. They’re going to look elsewhere. And aside from marketing, there is an element of being effective and compelling on camera that serves in the Courtroom, especially in smaller municipalities and in more rural areas. Many of the hearings, depositions that were done in person previously are now being done because it’s convenient via zoom. But small, what seemed to be small nuances in delivery can undercut your authority and your credibility and your trustworthiness in ways that most people aren’t even aware of. So that’s why understanding the skills and being able to deploy them are so important and we’ll continue to grow.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah, absolutely. And we’re all familiar. Everybody got a laugh during the pandemic with the I Am Not A CAT video. Right,

Kerry Barrett:

I remember that one.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. But it is funny because we were all able to laugh at it, so obvious, but I think I know what you’re talking about. I see lawyers in depositions. I see lawyers in virtual courtrooms just talking robotically at the camera, reading from their notes, not being, they would never do in court, right? But because they’re in a room, might be their bedroom, they’re staring at a wall with a camera in front of it, maybe a ring light on, maybe not, but they’re robotic. And I think to your point, we lose the fact that we’re not trying to convince the camera. There are humans on the other end of this, whether they’re your client who needs to feel comfortable or the judge who needs to be persuaded or even a jury, you’re talking to them. And so these skills, I think that’s what you’re saying, is these skills really go through the camera to the consumer, whether it’s marketing or performance. Yeah,

Kerry Barrett:

100%. And is, I mentioned in the beginning of this program how I have a couple of clients who are on national media, M-S-N-B-C and the BBC, and while that is not necessarily immediately client generating activity, there is a level of credibility that comes from being a trusted expert that has been vetted by various organizations. But if you are not able to deliver those opportunities for credibility building and visibility building are lost to you and your competitors are the ones who are going to be jumping on those opportunities. And it’s a skill that anybody can master. You don’t need to be naturally charismatic. You don’t need to be a performer. You certainly don’t need to be a TV personality, but just like public speaking, it is the skill that is essential for every beyond attorneys, essential for every business owner, every executive, every founder. That needs to be forward facing.

Christopher T. Anderson:

And that makes sense. And I’m going to ask you the toughest question of all, because I think this is one that goes to the crux of it. At the end of the day, what people are really looking for, and it’s something I don’t know, I’m going to let you answer it. We’ve talked today, we’ve talked about authority, we’ve talked about performance. We’ve talked about M-V-M-V-P method, we’ve talked about all these techniques, but I think one thing that people are also looking for, particularly if you’re doing marketing, but also if you’re doing Courtroom, et cetera, is authenticity. It’s funny because people who don’t practice any of what you’ve been talking about to me actually come across, even though they’re not practiced at all as lacking authenticity, even though they’re probably being authentically who they are in that moment, but it doesn’t come through. How does all of this relate to authenticity?

Kerry Barrett:

Oh, that is a good question. And on its face, it is the tough one. I will start by saying this, authenticity is a word that has been somewhat bastardized over the course of the last three years. Everybody wants to be authentic and everybody’s confused as to what it is. What I will tell you is that authenticity is being yourself, is being who you are when you are in front of a camera, whether you’re creating sales or marketing material as who you are when you are in front of a client or you are in front of a friend or your partner or your spouse or whoever it is, that’s really all it is. It means being the same person no matter where you show up. I will say though, there is a difference between showing up and being authentic and being prepared and authentic. Oftentimes, authenticity is I’m just going to wing it and I am who I am and love me or leave me.

Would you ever go into a consultation call with a potential client as love me, or leave me, take me or leave me You. You go in prepared. It’s the exact same thing. Conceptually, when you’re talking about speaking on camera, you can be exactly who you are and you should be. But there are areas that you need to amplify in order to make sure that your message comes across in an effective and compelling way. And there are probably, and I’ll put this in sort of air quotes, flaws, or things that you can tamp down on that you should be aware of when you’re in front of the camera. It’s like throwing somebody up on a stage and saying, just be yourself. That is not a compelling speaker. Make. That does not automatically garner trust. So it’s taking who you are, recognizing the challenges of the camera, amplifying the things that you’re already really good at, and making sure that you are able to deliver them in a way that your audience can understand and remember.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Perfect. And that is where we’re going to leave it today. That is the end of the unbillable hour. I want to thank our listeners for listening. Our guest today, I want to thank you, Kerry Barrett, an Emmy award-winning former NBC news anchor who’s working with attorneys to help them with their on camera presence, being authentic since we talked about it, but authoritative, compelling, competent, what are some of the other adjectives we’ve been using?

Kerry Barrett:

Using a lot of adjectives.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. Yeah. But seriously, but really helping them to be trustworthy, to present themselves, their authentic selves, the best that they can. Kerry, there’s probably a lot more, and people might want to engage with you or learn more from you. Where can they reach out so that they can get more information with you or from you?

Kerry Barrett:

Absolutely. I appreciate that. My website’s undergoing a bit of a revamp, so the best way to find me is to find me on LinkedIn. You can search me under Kerry Barrett. I host weekly live streams there. I host monthly webinars and masterclasses free for anybody who registers where we walk through the basics of speaking on camera and creating video. I’d love to see anybody attend any of those. So find me on LinkedIn, can sign up for a free call. At the very least, I’d love to follow. I post daily content with tips, tricks, and motivation and inspiration.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Perfect. Thank you, Kerry. And of course, this is Christopher T Anderson, and I look forward to being with all of you next month with another great guest as we learn more about topics that help us build a law firm business that works for you. Remember also that you can be part of the show. That’s right. You can ask your questions, either live every third Thursday at 3:00 PM or you can come right here on the show notes and leave us a question in the mailbag, and we will go through them and answer the most that we can at the community table. But the Community table is live every third Thursday at 3:00 PM Eastern, 12 o’clock Pacific. That’s one o’clock Mountain, two o’clock central time right here on the Legal Talk Network. And remember, also, you can subscribe to all the additions of this [email protected] or on iTunes. Thank you for joining us, and we will be speaking again soon.

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