Making Yourself Essential, The Art of Becoming Indispensable.

Episode Notes

Transcript

Tony Sipp:

Hi, and welcome back to the Paralegal Voice. My name is Tony Sipp. I’m here with Natalie Athas. She’s a trial paralegal out of Orange County. Natalie is currently a successful international trial paralegal professional in the law firm of Dorsey and Whitney, LLP. Natalie is responsible for providing trial support in all phases of litigation for senior paralegals and associate attorneys and large multimillion dollar cases, complex high state cases. She even went to my city in Rochester, New York, and I love it. She travels so much, she’s so talented, and I’m so glad to have you on Natalie to actually talk about what you do and the contributions you make to the legal field. So Natalie, welcome and please if I miss something, please tell me a little bit more about yourself.

Natalie Athas:

So I’ve been with Dorsey Whitney for eight years. I just celebrated my eighth year in November, and thank you. Very exciting. And I received the three tiers award for my contributions as a trial paralegal for always being available, keeping things confidential for our clients, for our cases, for just being available and helping out in any capacity that I can.

Tony Sipp:

I’m not shocked. I mean, I see you. Okay. So I follow her on Facebook and LinkedIn and she’s traveled so much. She’s always somewhere. So I’m really happy to have this moment in time to actually interview you and talk about all your accomplishments. She actually came up to LA for York for the award that I received. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The CLA award. So thank you for, first of all, that was huge. Thank you. It was such a pleasant surprise to see you and I love to see you. Normally I would see her at the Run for Justice in March for the public council, and we just, I think our bonding really happened there. Were doing I agree with that. Yeah, we did a lot of just walking. You do a 5K, you kind of get to know each other pretty well, so it was really great. It

Natalie Athas:

Really, I’ll be there next March if I’m not in trial.

Tony Sipp:

Excellent. I found out I had to look it up because I was so curious. So folks, just so you know, oh man, did I lose it? It’s at the end of March, so look forward to seeing you there. Again, I think a lot of our listeners would like to know what inspired you to pursue a career as a trial paralegal, if that’s how you started, and how did you start in the legal field?

Natalie Athas:

So when I first entered into the legal field, I did not know anything about paralegal, let alone a trial paralegal. I was studying to be a nurse actually, but yes, I wanted to be a nurse to deliver babies, but I didn’t know that there were so many sick babies, and I was too emotional. And the nurse said, you get used to it. And I just didn’t think I would want to be that person. So I had to pivot. So then I started as a file clerk while I was going to school, and I worked my way up the chain to a legal secretary. I took some courses actually at Loyola that I had back then in the day. So I got a certification there. Then I worked at Callahan and Blaine for about eight years, and then I went to Seaverson and Worsen, and I was there for 17 years. And when I was there, I worked my way up to being a liaison administrator. And when I managed the office, it was small and I went to trial with my attorneys as their legal assistant. But as the office grew, the trials became more prevalent due to the default loan modification era. I don’t know if you remember that era.

Tony Sipp:

Yeah, I do. Trust me, I do.

Natalie Athas:

Yeah, I know there’s crazies and there was trials like, oh my gosh, they didn’t want to settle. It became difficult to manage the office when I went away in trial. So I got my attestation and they hired a full-time administrator and I was promoted to the firm’s very first trial paralegal position for that branch office.

Tony Sipp:

Awesome.

Natalie Athas:

So I’ve been a trial paralegal officially since 2012.

Tony Sipp:

That’s awesome. I happened to be in the housing industry when, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I had to find another avenue to sustain myself and my family and I chose law. So

Natalie Athas:

There you go.

Tony Sipp:

Fortunately,

Natalie Athas:

Look at it worked

Tony Sipp:

Out at you. Yeah, it worked out successful. So I was lucky and I was down in Orange County, actually. Really? Yeah, like Irvine and Newport Beach, that whole area.

Natalie Athas:

Wow. Where I live, I live in Irvine and I worked in Irvine at the time, at Severson sgo. I guess Juan Carmen,

Tony Sipp:

I probably sued you at one point.

Natalie Athas:

Yeah, probably. We represented a Bank of America mostly at that time. So yeah, it was crazy.

Tony Sipp:

We represented Deutsche Bank, which yeah, they crushed everybody. It was pretty bad. I think everybody worked on that case, honestly. Yeah, it’s so true. So folks, what you don’t know is that Natalie and I are cyclists, so you will see pictures of her or myself biking on the weekend at some random. Orange County has the most incredible trails out there, LA’s getting better with their trails,

Natalie Athas:

It’s getting better. I saw some of the streets recently,

Tony Sipp:

Right. So I appreciate, I’m still cautious and I won’t ride solo unless I’m on a trail. I’m a little bit hyper aware of that. So even my Lyft the other day told me that it was a bike lane that I’m getting dropped off at. And to be aware of that, which I appreciate, I appreciate it. So no problem with that.

Natalie Athas:

Right.

Tony Sipp:

So can you share what a typical day looks like for you as a trial paralegal in Orange County?

Natalie Athas:

Well, I’m responsible for our SoCal office. That’s my home office. And we’re in Costa Mesa by South Coast Plaza.

Tony Sipp:

I live there too.

Natalie Athas:

Yeah, it’s right by South Coast Plaza. It’s really dangerous. There’s a bridge that goes to the plaza.

Tony Sipp:

Right, right, right, right. I know that bridge. I know what you’re talking about.

Natalie Athas:

Yeah, so it’s really easy to go there. And then water Grill is my favorite, so that’s really nice. We’re going to have our Christmas party there on Thursday, so that’ll be nice.

Tony Sipp:

Awesome.

Natalie Athas:

But I’m also, I’ve been assigned to assist Dorsey’s, Arizona office, Dallas office, Utah office, and the London office now with Covid, we let people go and they didn’t hire any paralegals and people that left. So the paralegals that stayed kind of held everything up. So now we’re getting busier, and so the offices want boots on the ground, so I won’t be assisting as much, but they’ve asked me to mentor the paralegals. They hire for those offices. So that’s kind of a big thing. But I’m also in the Dorsey trial group in the main office in Minnesota and Minneapolis actually. And so I assist pretty much all offices, honestly, because whatever office needs a help or assistance, they’ll contact me. My day is like a box of chocolates. Honestly, I never know what I’m going to get. And I know I shouldn’t say that, but it’s true.

And so it’s really hard for me to answer because one day I’ll be working on an employment law case and going through the file and the next day I’m working on an SEC case, a private government section case that have to send documents to. So I mean it’s, I just never know. I get so many different assignments, so it’s really hard for me to answer. But during Covid, I made myself an essential worker. I go to the office every day. I don’t know if I hurt myself because people work part-time at home and I still have to come in. But it’s okay because like SpongeBob and I need focus. But first thing, honestly, as everybody should do, the first thing, you come into the office or you work at home, you check your email and address it. And so that’s what I do. And so that’s where I find my work or I don’t find my work kind of thing. And I just help out, make myself available in any capacity needed.

Tony Sipp:

A lot of people gain focus coming into work. I mean, when California was letting people work and you had to adjust, you had to pivot and figure out what you can do from home. But were there any challenges or unique challenges or opportunities did you find and working as a trial focus paralegal in that environment? I imagine that had to be so challenging.

Natalie Athas:

It was actually. And so I was invisible working at home. Everyone started coveting their work and weren’t giving anything. So even the senior attorneys, I mean they just were not sharing and the courts were down. So really I was dealing with clients kind of thing.

Tony Sipp:

And you’re billable, right?

Natalie Athas:

I’m billable. And I was a newbie, honestly, at that time. Are we talking four years now? And I’ve been here eight. So I was probably three going on four years at that time, three years. But I was the lowest one on the totem pole, so I was worried about the layoff. So when they opened in March, I believe it was, they offered people opportunity to be essential worker and no one went for it. And because I was invisible, I felt at home and I had billable work, I made myself an essential worker, and I did covid cleaning. It’s so weird to talk about. I cleaned, I dunno what that means. I cleaned all the door handles, I cleaned all the railings. I mean I did all these weird things. Would

Tony Sipp:

You normally do that anyway?

Natalie Athas:

No,

Tony Sipp:

I would. That’s me. I have this OCD thing.

Natalie Athas:

Yeah, yeah, I get that with me too. I have to use a lot of lotion. Well, I’ll talk about it actually. I was very thorough, all man.

Tony Sipp:

Got

Natalie Athas:

It. Inside, interior, outside, it was ridiculous. But I did all the mailing, I was here, and so I got a flow. And then I also called every single office of Dorsey and talked to the managers and sent emails saying, I’m here. I’m available, let me know. And so I started getting work funneled in that way. So it was good. And it worked to my advantage, but then sometimes it was really bad. There was so much work, which was

Tony Sipp:

Good, which is good. Yes, job security.

Natalie Athas:

I’m never going to complain about that ever. I’m so grateful. But that was quite a time, honestly.

Tony Sipp:

And now you get to train others.

Natalie Athas:

Yeah, and it’s funny because a lot of people didn’t want to travel during Covid and I went to trials during Covid, we had to wear masks. And some states like North Dakota, they did not believe in masks. So I could not even bring out my mask, which is really hard from California and used to wearing the mask. So that was an weird thing. And then I did, you know what? I did some Zoom trials, which was interesting.

Tony Sipp:

Yeah, let’s take a quick break and go back into that. So folks, we’re going to take a quick commercial break and we’ll be right back and welcome back to the Paralegal Voice. I’m here with Natalie Athas. We are going to continue her conversation and doing her trial during COVID-19 via Zoom. So Natalie, can you tell us a little bit about that experience? It

Natalie Athas:

Was very interesting. I had to learn Zoom first of all, which was a new thing. But essentially it wasn’t that difficult because how I have to prepare for my job remained the same, which was very interesting. So that’s one thing that I love about my job honestly, is that I can do my job in any case, in any court, in any state, in any country, my job is gathering everything, making sure all the exhibits are there, knowing all the rules, assembling everything accordingly. So Zoom, I had to do that, but it seemed more on an electronic measure, which was fine. I work remotely a lot anyway in trial. So it was just a little bit different doing that. Zoom and trial witnesses were different. Putting up the exhibits were not as quick as it was probably as it is now. It was a little bit different, but it was great work. I still enjoyed it.

Tony Sipp:

I assume that you’re an expert on trial director, so with your hands being tied, how did it feel moving forward?

Natalie Athas:

So I did go to trial during covid to different states, and so I still was able to use trial director, but Zoom, it was different to accommodate that because the sharing screen really wasn’t that great back then. So I couldn’t amplify it was trial director. When you present it to the jury, you can pull out a paragraph that the attorneys are focusing on and amplify it. And then even in that, you can highlight it, circle a word. I like to do arrows, things like that to emphasize what the attorneys are talking about. So during the Zoom though trials, I couldn’t do that. So it’s just a plain paper. So at that moment, I really realized how effective those trial presentation programs are, and right now, trial director is not compatible to the current computers, how advanced the computers are now. So trial director has not got up to speed to that. So now I’m using ON Q, which is a different program, but it’s essentially the same and it seems a little bit more user-friendly. It looks a little bit more complicated, but it’s more user-friendly and faster.

Tony Sipp:

That’s so interesting. What role does technology play in case preparation? And it sounds like you’re using some different tools that many of us have used in the past, but how does technology play and your case preparation?

Natalie Athas:

Technology is a big, huge part of what I do. So as a paralegal or child paralegal, my suggestion is to learn everything you can. There’s so many programs out there, relativity trial director, and then the clients now are making their own databases and their own programs. So I’ve been having to do work into their databases. Some of it is really challenging because you can only find one document at a time and it takes a long time to find documents.

Tony Sipp:

So stressful

Natalie Athas:

A little bit, but others are more advanced where you can find a slew of documents immediately. And you have to know all your firm’s programs too. So that’s another thing. Technology is very important and we have to live by our laptop.

Tony Sipp:

So true. Those are changes. Those are some real life changes that you had to go through. How do you manage the pressure of last minute changes or surprises during trial prep? During trial for that matter? What skillset do you need to have to adjust so quickly?

Natalie Athas:

Whenever I do presentations to UCI students, paralegal students or Santa Ana community college paralegal students, my thing is it’s like the Nike commercial. You just do it. You have to do it.

Tony Sipp:

It’s not a choice.

Natalie Athas:

It’s not a choice. And I equate it to a wedding. Surprises happen. Inevitably, something goes wrong, sometimes it’s really wrong, but the key is to show how you handle the situation. So you do not break down or be a bridezilla in front of your wedding party or in front of your guests because that’s not going to help you, and the situation will not help itself. And you are running the wedding and I’m running the trial director or whatever. So you just have to remain calm, which is really hard sometimes. And you have to learn to pivot and adapt to pressure and be creative and find a solution. It may not be the best solution, but if it’s a solution, it’s

Tony Sipp:

A solution. It’s a solution. At the end of the day, make it work.

Natalie Athas:

Make It work. Regardless if you’re in Zoom trial or jury trial or even a bench trial, there’s witnesses and a judge or a jury, and they are looking at you all the time. And so they know if you can’t really show my attorney at Averson, she was a da. So we went to trial a lot together. And so I learned a lot from her, but remaining qu is hard. I’m going to lie, but you just have to move on. And a lot of times your guests will never know that the flowers were supposed to be yellow, but they’re blue and you’re supposed to have filet mignon, but you have chuck steak or something. And the same thing with a jury. Sometimes an exhibit doesn’t get slipped in there and you’re like, oh crap. But I know I have it in an exhibit board. So you bring it to the attorney and the jury doesn’t really know. They may know that something is a little bit off, but the main thing is is they see it. You just have to do it.

Tony Sipp:

I like that. I like that advice. We’re going to take a quick commercial break. We’ll be right back and welcome back to the Paralegal Voice. My name is Tony Sipp. I’m here with Natalie Athas. Natalie and know you’re in Orange County, California. How does your jurisdiction differ from the other jurisdictions in California?

Natalie Athas:

Well, the California rules are the same throughout the state, so it’s not really that much you have to worry about. What you have to worry about are the local rules. Like LA Superior Court has different local rules in Orange County Superior Court, they differ a little bit, but there’s always that little bit. But what’s most important is that you need to look at the judges’ local rules, his Courtroom procedures, because anything he has in there regarding trial preparation trumps any local rules or California state rules. So that’s the main important thing. And that applies actually to any state and actually applies to London and Paris internationally, but doesn’t matter. I think they do things a little bit different. I think we’re more organized here in America. It’s kind of funny to go back and forth, but essentially what’s weird is that it’s the same kind of, so you have to prepare it the same, honestly, and present it pretty much the same as well. They have a barrister there instead of senior counsel, which is different, but the procedures for each judge are different. That is across the board.

Tony Sipp:

I got to ask, were you intimidated when they first sent you on your international case? Was that something that was like,

Natalie Athas:

I had it only been here a couple years and there’s some attorneys that had left, a group had left, and so I was in need of work, billable work. And so again, I had reached out to the different offices, I reached to the child group and they said, well, by the way, we have a trial in London. It’s going to be three months. I had asked, so there’s no way I can say no,

Tony Sipp:

No, because you put yourself out there.

Natalie Athas:

Yeah. So yeah, I got to come back twice. They sent my husband one time for a week. So yes, it was very intimidating. Oh my god, it was so intimidating. But when you get into the office environment, and that’s what I’m saying about my job, I love my job because I still did my job there, even as intimidating as it was. And we had 25 boxes or documents that I had to go through and assemble and organize. It was very difficult, but was able to do it. And again, it’s just one thing I love about my is conquering the day and handling those challenges and persevering. It’s hard work. You have to be dedicated and sometimes you want to cry.

Tony Sipp:

Cry that’s real

Natalie Athas:

Don’t get me real. But at the end of the day when it’s all put together and what you have created is being used and you see your name on things is pretty cool.

Tony Sipp:

Yeah, I appreciate that. Letting people know the real life of a trial paralegal, that’s really important. I think a lot of people, not

Natalie Athas:

Much sleep, so you have to really care for your eyes.

Tony Sipp:

Okay. No, I appreciate this because that’s something that people, I don’t know if they strive to be that or they don’t know what it’s like or they want to experience what it’s like to be a trial paralegal and now they have a podcast that they can listen to to actually experience the real life of a trial paralegal, international trial paralegal on top of that. So thank you for that. Are there any trends or changes that you have noticed in the local legal industry, particularly in trial law?

Natalie Athas:

So the latest trends right now are covid cases that are coming up. It’s been about four years, and the courts were down for about what a year most. And so the courts are just catching up to speed. So now the trials are kind of going and they’re always been stacked up. So a lot of cases that I have come across with different clients are regarding covid, like LA Fitness had all these gyms and they were mandated to close and they had no revenue and they had all these, so they had to let some leases go or they didn’t pay for certain rent, but they were very good in trying to settle these out and want to be fair and want to pay what they couldn’t at the time. But there’s always those few landlords that want restitution and they want to be paid double.

Tony Sipp:

No, those don’t exist. No, they don’t exist.

Natalie Athas:

God bless them because we need that in order to keep our jobs.

So those crazy cases are coming up. It’s like the loan modification era. It’s the crazy people that don’t want to settle or those are the good ones that go to trial. So for the most part, well, Kristen and I never really lost a trial, but you just never know the jury’s going to go, especially with the Covid cases, to be honest, because there is sympathy. They’re empathetic. Some of them have suffered through that and have maybe the same problem personally. So it’s kind of hard, but that’s what I see. It hasn’t affected just civil contract law. We’re talking employment law, workman’s comp, me mal, kind of a big monster that’s kind of coming up, and that’s what I see.

Tony Sipp:

Yeah, I have to ask, what toll does it take on you? I mean, because I will hear and now admit, I will never, never ever do family law. It’s too much. It’s too much for me. I can’t bear a minute in that seeing couples fight, I can’t do it. It’s not for me. Criminal law, I learned it’s not for me either. I still have a trigger, but it’s not for me. Family law, absolutely not. How do you feel about moving forward? What advice would you give someone who’s listening to this that wants to be a trial paralegal and the skill sets that they need to acquire? Excuse me for saying this, but to become you.

Natalie Athas:

So again, my job is organizing and putting it together for the attorney. So I’m not the one that’s actually presenting it to the attorney and having the jury or presenting it to the jury. They are, and they have to do the convincing or the facts. I like facts and I think juries are very good. They’re smart people. They know when people are lying and stuff like that. And that’s what I love when there’s actually vindication. Sometimes the big corporations are actually the good guys and they’re always made to be the bad guys. But the main thing is that you just have to do your job. As difficult as it is, med mal, it’s sad. It’s pretty sad. And there’s a lot of sympathy that’s played, and I’m not taking away from that at all because that was a hard time. But you just have to treat it like a document and put it together. And sometimes for me, sometimes I don’t know anything about the case. And that is a big challenge to know, jump in and organize and the attorney knows it back and forth and it tells you, get this document, you’re like, sure, you have to go find it. Because I

Tony Sipp:

Right after lunch, right after lunch.

Natalie Athas:

And so a lot of times I’m having to work long, long hours just trying to get everything together and understanding it. So you have to just treat it like it’s a case. It’s heartfelt sometimes, I’m not going to lie. But your job is not that. Your job is to represent our client and to support our trial team and represent our firm. And so that has to be in an organized fashion and able to use and be seen by the jury.

Tony Sipp:

Now you seem so on top of everything that you do. How do you stay updated on legal developments and maintaining your skills? We have new technology, we have new laws coming in next month. How do you do it

Natalie Athas:

Regardless if you’re a child paralegal or not? It’s always good to know the rules that are changing in any field because sometimes they apply across the board. So it’s always good to go to CLE presentations that are given by your firm or paralegal associations like Los Angeles Paralegal Association or Orange County Paralegal Association. You guys have education conferences, which are huge end of the year updates that inform you about the next year’s rules. Those are invaluable. And then California Attorney’s Association, they talk a lot about technology. I mean, you got the award, so I was very taken aback with that. And I’m actually planning on joining them on top of LA’s Paralegal Association and Orange County Paralegal Association. But being in that environment with other people, your peers is huge. There’s legal developments that you can collaborate on and just meeting people. You never know If I need something in la Tony, I’m calling you.

Tony Sipp:

Yeah, same way,

Natalie Athas:

The other way around. So there’s that collaboration. But to keep your legal developments and updated and maintain your skills, you just have to know what’s out there. Like ai, you just have to be educated as much as you can. It helps make you valuable, make yourself valuable because what’s going on and how to make your job more valuable.

Tony Sipp:

Natalie, I can talk to you for days. So to close out a few things, where can people reach you and get in contact with you after listening to this and also what piece of advice you would share with everyone going into the future?

Natalie Athas:

Well, first of all, Natalie Athas work at Dorsey and Whitney. My email address is Athas dot Natalie, N-A-T-A-L-I-E at Dorsey, D-O-R-S-E y.com.

Tony Sipp:

And the piece of advice that you would like to leave our listeners

Natalie Athas:

To be flexible, to be available, to be responsive, to be communicative, and to learn all programs available, learn everything you can or at least be aware and always do your best. It’s hard sometimes and you can cut corners, but sometimes it’s not worth it because you cut the corner and you might need that corner and know that you’re not perfect and things happen. But if you work hard and try your best and produce great work product and work those long hours, be the yes person and make sure that everything is done as properly as you can. They can never take that away from you and they will always remember you.

Tony Sipp:

Yeah. What better way to close out guys. She’s like a Spartan athlete, which you don’t know on the side. Everything you heard about her legal skills, she’s also a beast in the weight room. She just kills it.

Natalie Athas:

I have a Spartan race this Saturday actually. See

Tony Sipp:

Exactly

Natalie Athas:

The mistake over there in LA by you. Yeah.

Tony Sipp:

See, I’m telling you, she’s a beast. Please go follow her. You will not be disappointed. Natalie, thank you so much for your time. I really wanted to do this for a long time, so I’m glad we’re able to do this. So thank you for being our guest for the podcast. Have a wonderful day. I’m sure I’ll see you in March.

Natalie Athas:

I appreciate you, Tony. Knowing you makes me a better person and paralegal, so I’m so grateful to have you in my life.

Tony Sipp:

Ah, same here. Same here. Alright folks, thank you for listening to the Paralegal Voice and we’ll see you next time. Have a great day.

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